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Old 02-11-2019, 10:48 PM   #151
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

not antisemitic and lol at carrying the water for the altright on this.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:51 PM   #152
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Originally Posted by synth_floyd View Post
In theory BDS is not anti-semitic. But for some reason a lot of people involved happen to be anti-semites.
The "don't be a mark" thing goes both ways here, just like a lot of centrists fall for insanely bad faith claims of anti-semitism about Israel criticism, a lot of liberals and leftists critical of Israel seem to take a "big tent" view on Palestinian solidarity and end up getting chummy with Farrakhan and ****.


It's a simple rule, not always easy to follow, but that's the cost of doing business. The "hey does this person act like this principle is a sincere belief or is it obviously adopted out of one-time convenience for just this issue" system is nearly unbeaten.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:53 PM   #153
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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I lean towards thinking it isn't anti-Semitic.

Feel free to say this is hypocritical given our earlier conversation, but I find BDS to be much closer to the line than criticism of AIPAC like we discussed earlier.

I guess to me BDS conceptually would continue until Israel didn't exist (at least not in anything close to its current form) any more. That's not something I want and something that strikes me as pretty anti-Semitic, in concept.
I don't think most of BDS is antisemetic, but it's certainly not completely absent from the movement.

I don't think Israel should exist in its current form. I'm sympathetic to a Jewish homeland and aware of how widespread antisemitism and appreciate that when Donald Trump Jr. tries to throw me in an oven there's a place I can go, but Israel can't do it without making peace with the other people who live there. There have been legit reasons to both-sides this over the years, but Israel has really gone down a bad path* and it's basically on them at this point to make things right or it's just all their fault.

*imo the real turn, aside from the Rabin assassination, was building the wall.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:00 PM   #154
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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I don't think most of BDS is antisemetic, but it's certainly not completely absent from the movement.

I don't think Israel should exist in its current form. I'm sympathetic to a Jewish homeland and aware of how widespread antisemitism and appreciate that when Donald Trump Jr. tries to throw me in an oven there's a place I can go, but Israel can't do it without making peace with the other people who live there. There have been legit reasons to both-sides this over the years, but Israel has really gone down a bad path* and it's basically on them at this point to make things right or it's just all their fault.

*imo the real turn, aside from the Rabin assassination, was building the wall.
You can probably associate it with the wall as it's more or less the same concept, but IMO rapid settlement expansion is the worst thing that's ever happened.

I tend to think that it's important to always have Israel be a safe place for Jews to go, but that it doesn't necessarily have to be a majority Jewish state controlled only by Jews. I know these are somewhat difficult to reconcile.

I also think the original statement of the declaration of the state of Israel is something the country should actively work to return to, as it was quite nobel.

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THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:05 PM   #155
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Originally Posted by jman220 View Post
Yeah, but you're all doing it. The right absolutely does it with the Soros bull**** and being a big-tent party for nazis, and the left does it with **** like this. It's like the one thing people on the extreme left and extreme right have in common. She apologized, either one of the following two statements must therefore be true:

1. The apology was legitimate. She accepts that what she said was antisemitic and she will learn from it.

2. The apology was illegitimate. She made it for political expediency but believes she should not have had to apologize.

There is no option 3 here. I choose to believe option 1. Which option do you believe?
You should take a step back and look at the scope. Omar is a freshman rep, virtually alone. The vocal critics of Israel in Congress are Bernie, her and maybe a few more. Most are of the don't really care one way or another. The Soros thing was all up and down the Republican party, from the Presidential race to probably some local school board. Leading Dems condemned her and she quickly apologized. Has any Republican apologized? Nah. Are we expecting them to ever apologize? No. Because their base doesn't care.

The history here too was that Republicans are looking for a wedge issue and were gunning for the freshman reps to find those wedge issues, be it AOC or someone else.

AOC is much more adept at dodging the bullets. Omar not so much.

So with all that history I think her answer was sincere and the most politically expedient. With these faux pas scandles it's best to deprive it of oxygen, apologize for bad wording and move on. Why bother trying to litigate about 'when is criticism of Israel truly anti semetic?' when you're just fueling the scandle regardless of what is said?

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 02-11-2019 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:05 PM   #156
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Old 02-11-2019, 11:09 PM   #157
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

Trump is obviously an anti-semite, though I guess he does have his one Jewish friend (or in this case, in-law).
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:10 PM   #158
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

As you know there's been a lot of conflict among Israeli Jews and the peace camp just seems to have lost. The settlements are terrible and have become something that is almost impossible to undo.

When I was a young man violence was more common in Israel, but Israelis and Palestinians worked an lived with each other as lots of Palestinians commuted across lines. Now a big percentage of the interaction is with Israelis on patrol in the Army. It's not good.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:11 PM   #159
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220 View Post
Yeah, but you're all doing it. The right absolutely does it with the Soros bull**** and being a big-tent party for nazis, and the left does it with **** like this. It's like the one thing people on the extreme left and extreme right have in common. She apologized, either one of the following two statements must therefore be true:

1. The apology was legitimate. She accepts that what she said was antisemitic and she will learn from it.

2. The apology was illegitimate. She made it for political expediency but believes she should not have had to apologize.

There is no option 3 here. I choose to believe option 1. Which option do you believe?
Setting a black-and-white false dichotomy is pretty crappy.

How about:

1a. The apology was legitimate. She accepts what she said was antisemitic and she will learn from it.

1b. The apology was legitimate. She didn't fully appreciate that is was an antisemitic trope, she appreciates being educated about this. She didn't mean it in the same what it has been used in the past, but she apologizes unequivocally for causing offense.

2. The apology was illegitimate. She made it for political expediency but believes she should not have had to apologize.

Since the actual words of her apology were very close to 1b, why do you not allow it as a possibility?
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:12 PM   #160
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

Huehue, you are an A+ poster in my book, sincerely one of the best, but for my sanity I gotta tell you it's "scandal," not "scandle."
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:13 PM   #161
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

It's odd that a lot of antisemitism is expressed in a seemingly complimentary way, but there's always the unspoken backhand progression.

Smart/shrewd/crafty/untrustworthy

good with money/miserly/thieving

Connected/conspiring/cabal
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:17 PM   #162
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

I thought I was spelled wrong but I keep getting interrupted and I haven't reset my spell check in a while.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:18 PM   #163
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

Amazing how quick people are to bash people for criticizing Israel and Israeli interests no matter how vile they may be.

Omar is not anti-Semitic in this tweet. Inaccurate? Perhaps. But antisemitism requires intent to hurt Jewish people. Without it, it's ignorance.

Watching how quickly Democrats were willing to sell her down the river while simultaneously conflating actual antisemitism with legitimate criticisms of Israel and moneyed interests related to Israel is a huge problem American politicians have.

Another issue is the implication that AIPAC speaks for all Jews when it doesn't. It speaks to the interest of hard-right Jews and the 1%. Anybody else following along is either ignorant or an idiot.

Am excited to see the CTH episode about this that is inevitably coming.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:21 PM   #164
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

Most Democrats in congress want her (and AOC and Bernie) to fail period.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:30 PM   #165
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

Israel has good and bad actors on both sides, but the bad actors on the Jewish side fed really well off the post 9/11 hysteria, and US leadership since then has either been too complicit or too abrogate as nwo steward to do anything about it.


The region is so packed with entrenched players and munitions at this point that we need a massive energy revolution to enable significant, stabilizing influence.


GND is a national security & moral priority even without climate change.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:40 PM   #166
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Most Democrats in congress want her (and AOC and Bernie) to fail period.
Yeah, over last few weeks its started to become clear to me that pretty much every other Presidential candidate is massively flawed, to put it kindly, and the only play is to go hard in the paint for Bernie.

For some reason, probably purely personality, I was drawn to Sherrod Brown for a little while then he comes out hard that the best we can do is Medicare for people 55 and over, and surprise, surprise turns out he gets alot of donations from health insurance companies.... puke.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:40 PM   #167
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Most Democrats in congress want her (and AOC and Bernie) to fail period.
Of course. People want to keep their jobs.

-------------------------

Chelsea Clinton's response was like a rehearsal in an upcoming Presidential run. I swear she sounds and acts exactly like Hillary. It was genuinely infuriating to read.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:02 AM   #168
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Of course. People want to keep their jobs.

-------------------------

Chelsea Clinton's response was like a rehearsal in an upcoming Presidential run. I swear she sounds and acts exactly like Hillary. It was genuinely infuriating to read.
It's the dumbest timeline seeing her respond to the communism kills girl who is one of the dumbest grifters who had been unheard of for a year and Adam Friedland.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:30 AM   #169
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

I’ve always thought the anti-circumcision movement reeked of anti-semitism but maybe I’m just being dramatic? Probably because problem are oddly fanatical about it the way they are with racism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob View Post
Amazing how quick people are to bash people for criticizing Israel and Israeli interests no matter how vile they may be.

Omar is not anti-Semitic in this tweet. Inaccurate? Perhaps. But antisemitism requires intent to hurt Jewish people. Without it, it's ignorance.

Watching how quickly Democrats were willing to sell her down the river while simultaneously conflating actual antisemitism with legitimate criticisms of Israel and moneyed interests related to Israel is a huge problem American politicians have.

Another issue is the implication that AIPAC speaks for all Jews when it doesn't. It speaks to the interest of hard-right Jews and the 1%. Anybody else following along is either ignorant or an idiot.

Am excited to see the CTH episode about this that is inevitably coming.

Thought this was a pretty good post.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:27 AM   #170
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Most Democrats in congress want her (and AOC and Bernie) to fail period.
Social chauvinists as they may be, there is a class character to AOC and Bernie's campaigns and the ruling class just cannot stand it.

Full support for Ilhan Omar and full condemnation of Israel and AIPAC. She is right to call them out and I think we all need to be quite firm in our support of Palestine. This is not one of those "complicated" situations. Their land has been stolen and they have been forced to live in an open air prison. AIPAC is openly bribing politicians to support their wicked positions.

Read this thread for more info:
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:55 AM   #171
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Social chauvinists as they may be, there is a class character to AOC and Bernie's campaigns and the ruling class just cannot stand it.

Full support for Ilhan Omar and full condemnation of Israel and AIPAC. She is right to call them out and I think we all need to be quite firm in our support of Palestine. This is not one of those "complicated" situations. Their land has been stolen and they have been forced to live in an open air prison. AIPAC is openly bribing politicians to support their wicked positions.

Read this thread for more info:
Wow, that sounds awful. Can you explain further what an open air prison is? Can they not leave? Are they tortured?
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:07 AM   #172
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Wow, that sounds awful. Can you explain further what an open air prison is? Can they not leave? Are they tortured?
Sure here is some more info:

https://www.nrc.no/news/2018/april/g...en-air-prison/
Quote:
More than 50 years of occupation and 10 years of blockade have made the lives of 1,9 million Palestinians living inside the Gaza Strip unbearable. That is why they now are protesting and risking their lives.
Palestinian children and youth grow up in a society characterised by fear, lack of security, hopelessness and the lack of work, medical services, food, freedom of movement and other essentials. Today many refer to the Gaza Strip as the world’s largest open-air prison, where the prison guard is Israel.

Unliveable by 2020
Gaza is one of the world's most densely populated areas, with more than 5,000 inhabitants per square kilometre. The Gaza Strip is smaller than the city of Oslo but is home to three times as many people. The population is expected to rise to 2.1 million by 2020.

A 2012 UN report predicted the Palestinian enclave would be “unliveable” by 2020 if nothing was done to ease the blockade, but in June 2017 a UN report on living conditions in Gaza stated that all the indicators are going in the wrong direction and that deadline is actually approaching even faster than earlier predicted.

Why the Palestinians in Gaza are protesting:
1.9 million people are confined

Gaza is described by many Palestinians and humanitarian actors as the world’s largest open-air prison, where 1.94 million Palestinians live behind a blockade and are refused access to the other occupied Palestinian areas and the rest of the world.

7 out of 10 are refugees

7 out of 10 Palestinians in Gaza are registered as refugees, and many of these come from families who were forced to leave their villages in 1948. Many have also been forced to leave their homes due to war and violence. Four years after the Israeli attack on Gaza in 2014, 23,500 Palestinians in Gaza are still unable to return to their homes.

700 children have been killed

The oldest children in Gaza have lived through three wars that have killed more than 3,800 Palestinians. More than 700 of these were children. Many children have seen family members, relatives, friends or others be killed or seriously injured.

50% are traumatised by war

Half of all children have been psychologically traumatised by war, occupation and blockade. Close to 300,000 children need psychosocial help.

70% of all schools run double shifts

Close to 70 per cent of all schools run double or triple shifts due to a lack of schools. In addition, lack of electricity reduces the students' chance to learn or do homework. The blockage also stops young people from studying on the West Bank or abroad.

According to the UNRWA, the UN's organisation for Palestinian refugees, the large cuts in donations from the US may lead to the organisation being unable to deliver diesel to 275 schools. These schools may be forced to close down if other countries do not contribute.

42% unemployment

The people in Gaza face the world's largest unemployment rate. 42 percent of the capable, adult population stand without compensated work. For those between 15 and 29 years old, the unemployment rate has risen to 62 percent. Today, the people in Gaza are 25 percent poorer than they were when the first part of the Oslo agreement was signed in 1993.

84% are in need of humanitarian aid

1.6 million, or 84 percent, of the population in Gaza need humanitarian aid. The number is increasing, and the UN calculate that more than two million people will need humanitarian aid by 2020.

41% have too little food

4 out of 10 families struggle to acquire enough food. In Gaza, more than 830,000 Palestinians need assistance in the form of food or nutritional supplements. According to UNRWA, the UN's organization for Palestinian refugees, the large cuts in funding from the US will cause the UN to have to reduce food support. Most of those who will be affected are already living below the poverty line.

98% of ground water is undrinkable

98 percent of the water in Gaza is contaminated and undrinkable. Gaza has beautiful beaches, but every day, 90 million litre unfiltered sewage is pumped out along the shoreline every day.

2 - 4 hours of electricity

The Gazan population cannot count on more than 2-4 hours of continuous electrical power a day. Every day, Gaza experiences up to 22 hours of power outage.

35% of arable land is unavailable

35 percent of the land eligible for farming is unavailable and fishermen are blocked from 85 percent of the waters on the coast of Gaza due to Israeli security zones.

7% of the children suffer from stunted growth

Poverty and lack of food has led to 7 percent of the children suffering from stunted growth due to long-term malnutrition. 60 percent of the children are anaemic.

45% are refused medical treatment outside Gaza

Those in need of specialised medical treatment must apply for permission from the Israeli government to leave Gaza. Many applications are declined, or at best delayed, and many risk dying while they wait.

In October 2017, the World Health Organization reported that only 55 percent of the applications to leave Gaza for medical treatment were granted.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:10 AM   #173
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Old 02-12-2019, 03:15 AM   #174
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

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Thats a little confusing article to me. I wanted you to answer. Is Israel government or random people torturing muslims? They aren't letting them leave? Are Israelis treated well in Palestine or other Muslim countries in the middle east?
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:16 AM   #175
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Re: A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic.

No you have it right. Israel government is not only not letting people leave, they are sniping people in the legs (including children) for protesting peacefully against all this. It's well documented.
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