A thread for discussing whether the recent tweet of Ilhan Omar was antisemitic. - Page 3 - Politics and Economics

AIPAC sucks, but it doesn't have a stranglehold on the US government. The Israeli government sucks. It's pretty close to fascist. Reminds me of another government. One that aligns closely with Israel.

What other lobbyist group has near the power that AIPAC does over Congress regarding US/Israel relations? If I was not specific enough regarding the issue I was referring to I apologize, but compared to things like J Street it's just no contest which is terrible. That seems like a stranglehold to me.

02-11-2019 , 03:46 PM

#52

gregorio

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Why are we talking about AIPAC? Her tweet wasn't about AIPAC and their $3.5M in lobbying expenditures, it was about pro-Israel money in general (and I believe the discussion started around the anti-BDS bill). The biggest(?) contributor to the Republican party is Adelson, who contributed about $100M during the midterm cycle. That is a lot of Benjamins, and it's no conspiracy theory that Adelson is very pro-Israel and close to Netanyahu, and had front row seats for the Jerusalem embassy ribbon-cutting ceremony.

Not really sure how pro-Israel Bloomberg (Michael Bloomberg has been a fervent supporter of Israel, to a point; Bloomberg’s Friendly Advice to pro-Israel, anti-BDS Protesters: Shut Up! ) is or whether that's something he cares about when making donations, but I think he was the Dems biggest contributor.

Last edited by gregorio; 02-11-2019 at 03:54 PM.

02-11-2019 , 03:48 PM

#53

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by champstark

The implication is that the US government would not have a similar policy without AIPAC and that's wrong imo. The US primarily allies with Israel for a lot of reasons having nothing to do with AIPAC. J-street could spend twice as much money as AIPAC and not much would change.

02-11-2019 , 03:49 PM

#54

PartyGirlUK

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I don't think anyone disputed AIPAC is more influential than J Street (and other Israel/Palestine lobbying groups). They're disputing it's an influential factor on Congress's pro-Israel positions. It's not. It obviously has some influence. But the idea Dems/GOP are criticising Omar to please AIPAC, when AIPAC doesn't directly donate to politicians, is ridiculous. They're criticising because i) They found her comments offensive/anti-Semitic, ii) They're Republican partisans, iii) They're Islamophobic, iv) They're pro-Israel for reasons that have nothing to do with AIPAC. Some combination of those four. And sure, if you want to add v) Sheldon Adelson money/paid AIPAC trip to Israel as a very minor factor, fine. If you think v) is a big factor you're just wrong, and wrong in a way that is remarkably similar to the worst anti-Semitic trope.

02-11-2019 , 03:51 PM

#55

PartyGirlUK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio

Why are we talking about AIPAC? Her tweet wasn't about AIPAC

02-11-2019 , 03:53 PM

#56

PartyGirlUK

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This is a good apology.

I hope she stops listening to left wing edgelords/tankies and being so bad at Twitter. I think she's just not familiar with anti-Semitic stereotypes, I don't think she hates Jews. Getting more pro-Palestinian voices in Congress is important. Making sure they avoid saying stuff that verges on anti-Semitic is crucial. Otherwise they make nine good factually correct pro-Palestinians and slip in one kinda anti-Semitic comment and everyone focuses on the latter. And connects being pro-Palestinian with being anti-Semitic. Ilhan Omar is a great story and I hope she can turn it around and have a successful impact on U.S politics.

02-11-2019 , 03:54 PM

#57

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio

Koch network spent $400M. They obviously aren't focused on Israel, but I'm pretty sure they are supportive.

Really the question is why Dems support Israel so strongly. Obviously Republicans support a right wing westernish government in the ME that projects military power in the region. Oh, wait, that's why Dems support them too.

02-11-2019 , 03:59 PM

#58

microbet

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Btw, I generally don't agree with PartygirlUK and specifically not on who is and isn't anti-Semitic.

02-11-2019 , 04:01 PM

#59

57 On Red

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nittery

To see who has power over you find who you cannot criticize, etc.

AIPAC is just an arm of the military-industrial complex.

Erm... you just quoted the American neo-Nazi and paedophile Kevin Strom. The quotation is often misattributed to Voltaire by neo-Nazi sympathisers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Alfred_Strom

Quote:

The statement "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" is often attributed to Voltaire, the French Enlightenment writer, historian and philosopher. In fact, it is based on something said by Strom in his program, "All America Must Know the Terror That is Upon Us" (1993): "To determine the true rulers of any society, all you must do is ask yourself this question: Who is it that I am not permitted to criticize?" The misattributed quotation continues to spread across the Internet.

02-11-2019 , 04:01 PM

#60

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigt2k4

nope, the waste issue is minor.

Problem is people think all waste is high level waste, there's actually very low amounts of high level waste

The waste issue is theoretically not huge and Germany does ok, but the US is terrible at it and there's no reason to expect better.

02-11-2019 , 04:05 PM

#61

PartyGirlUK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Btw, I generally don't agree with PartygirlUK and specifically not on who is and isn't anti-Semitic.

I suspect you're misremembering and assuming because I frequently post about anti-Semitism I must have accused lots of people of anti-Semitism. I'm generally very careful, e.g saying Omar's tweet was "borderline anti-Semitic" but that I don't think she hates Jews. I also say Magic Grandpa has a lot history of fawning over anti-Semites (yeah I don't want to go down that derail rn) but don't know if he is personally anti-Semitic. I think you'll find I don't actually accuse people of being anti-Semitic all that often.

02-11-2019 , 04:15 PM

#62

champstark

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re: AIPAC not being relevant or having a substantial effect on US policy towards Israel

What about the Iran deal?

No shock that AIPAC was vehemently opposed: https://www.aipac.org/learn/issues/i...4FE6A6E43DE%7D

WaPo article from 2015 discussing how AIPAC "lost" the Iran deal that is kinda funny to read today, considering they seem to have actually "won."

Quote:

Not since George H.W. Bush was president has the American Israel Public Affairs Committee sustained such a public defeat on an issue it deemed an existential threat to Israel’s security.

But the Iran nuclear deal has Washington insiders wondering if the once-untouchable lobbying giant has suffered lasting damage to its near-pristine political reputation.

In fighting the deal, AIPAC and its affiliates mustered all of its considerable resources: spending tens of millions on television ads in the home states of undecided lawmakers and organizing a fly-in to blitz legislators on Capitol Hill – another is planned for next week when Congress returns from August recess to vote on a resolution of disapproval. But all that noise amounted to a humbling and rare defeat this week, when President Obama secured enough backing in the Senate to protect the pact from efforts to dismantle it.

[Sign up for The Daily 202, The Washington Post’s new political tipsheet]

Many say AIPAC’s efforts were doomed to fail in the aftermath of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s combative speech to Congress in March — an appearance brokered by Israel’s ambassador to the United States along with House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) without White House consultation. Many of AIPAC’s supporters also blame Obama and what they see as a process he rigged and a debate he polarized.

But whether the White House won a lasting victory in securing the Iran deal’s fate, AIPAC may have lost its claim to iron-clad influence over lawmakers on issues pertaining to Israel.

Do you guys just disagree with this? Find it outdated?

More analysis I found on Google (don't know anything about Foreign Policy magazine or its motives)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/11...the-iran-deal/

Quote:

Although it appears headed for a legislative defeat, the effort hasn’t been a total failure. AIPAC has seen the numbers of Americans who disapprove of the deal increase while it has raised more money so far in 2015 than in any previous year. The group hopes to double its budget within five years, and the fight over the deal — even though it ended in a loss — could help AIPAC get there.

“This fight has been good for AIPAC in that it brought in a lot of money,” Steven Rosen, who lobbied for the organization until 2005, told Foreign Policy.

That’s not unprecedented. AIPAC has waged other losing battles in Washington that led to bigger donations from its members. As the Forward reported, AIPAC’s fundraising also increased after it unsuccessfully battled the Reagan administration’s 1981 sale of AWACS surveillance aircraft to Saudi Arabia and after a 1991 decision by President George H.W. Bush’s administration to condition a $10 billion loan package to Israel.

Whether it meets its new fundraising targets or not, one thing is for certain: The public will have little idea of how AIPAC’s tens of millions of dollars are spent.

***
More often than not, AIPAC’s advocacy has been employed in winning efforts. As recently as December 2014, AIPAC managed to secure 80 Senate co-sponsors — including 47 Democrats — on a bill that strengthened the strategic cooperation between the United States and Israel. On Aug. 1, 2014, the House overwhelmingly passed by a margin of 395-8 an emergency appropriation that provided $225 million for Israel’s Iron Dome missile defense system, in the midst of an Israeli military operation against Hamas in Gaza and just before Congress headed out for its five-week August recess. A 2013 resolution, calling for full implementation of sanctions against Iran and opposition to its nuclear program, drew 90 co-sponsors. AIPAC supported all three measures.

Those sound to me like real and tangible results that would not be possible without AIPAC.

02-11-2019 , 04:23 PM

#63

fxwacgesvrhdtf

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Grunching, but what Omar tweeted is absolutely an anti Semitic trope and she needs to apologize for it.

02-11-2019 , 04:24 PM

#64

champstark

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read this re: AIPAC and how it influences Congress

02-11-2019 , 04:24 PM

#65

PartyGirlUK

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AIPAC wanted the U.S to strike Assad in 2013 & were vehemently opposed to the Iran deal. Obama didn't strike Assad and signed the Iran deal. So yeah, claiming it has a "stranglehold" on U.S politics is dumb.

02-11-2019 , 04:25 PM

#66

microbet

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AIPAC lost the Iran deal. Are you now blaming AIPAC for electing Trump?

02-11-2019 , 04:26 PM

#67

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

Ben Garrison is probably super conflicted right now.

He has a mostly-drawn cartoon with a bunch of female libs and other stuff with labels - but he can't quite figure out what the point is yet.

02-11-2019 , 04:27 PM

#68

PartyGirlUK

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Also a bunch of gulf states lobbied hard for Obama to strike Assad and against the Iran deal. So it's troublesome if you ignore all of that and claim/imply all the lobbying was from AIPAC.

02-11-2019 , 04:28 PM

#69

CalledDownLight

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jman220

Grunching, but what Omar tweeted is absolutely an anti Semitic trope and she needs to apologize for it.

She already did

02-11-2019 , 04:30 PM

#70

champstark

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Since no one's bothering to really read what I'm posting and just making assumptions, gonna tap out of this discussion. Enjoy dudes.

02-11-2019 , 04:32 PM

#71

fxwacgesvrhdtf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CalledDownLight

She already did

Like I said, grunching.

02-11-2019 , 04:36 PM

#72

microbet

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Read what? That more often than not they lobby for efforts that win? That's not what a stranglehold is.

02-11-2019 , 04:47 PM

#73

gregorio

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Quote:

Originally Posted by champstark

Since no one's bothering to really read what I'm posting and just making assumptions, gonna tap out of this discussion. Enjoy dudes.

Weird post to come back to after reading the twitter thread you just posted.

02-11-2019 , 04:48 PM

#74

gregorio

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https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1095046561254567937

Responses are what you'd expect.

02-11-2019 , 05:11 PM

#75

iamnotawerewolf

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I want to know why is she specifically blaming the tribe of Benjamin, though

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