Just to explain better the "family thing" to get priority straight. For conservatives (real ones and plenty of them exist in Europe) a father that doesn't deep into his savings to help an adult son or daughter get through in life is like 100-1000x a worse human being that a father that does but tends to express some bad racist opinion sometimes. It's like literally a far worse human being if he fights against racism but he is stingy with his resources with his children. Or with his old parents if sick.

Like not caring at all for your ailing old mother is on the level of pedophilia as gravity goes, for real conservatives.

You think that's bad prioritizing? I don't. I think destroying family attachment has a far worse result for society than a bit of racism or sexism can have. The left disagree and we see what happens in the us. You don't fix racism and sexism anyway, because people don't stop being bad just because leftists tell them so, but you lose out of a previously bipartisan family value standard that held society together.

I fear there's some myth that before the state helped with looking after people, families were more loving, supporting places. I suspect that if anything the reverse is true with widespread abuse and suffering that we could all happily ignore because it was hidden away.

ye it's completly a coincidence that the demographic that by far is doing best in the us (Asians) has a deeply held culture that puts family much higher as a priority than all other cultural groups.

Oh boy, he we go.

I take back none of what I said but apologize for what I have done to this thread, god speed everyone.

Luciom do you realise that you're arguing that the problem in one of the most socially right-leaning countries in the developed world is facing the problems it is facing because of leftist dominance? There's probably even be some truth in the importance of family values, but arguing that somehow a lack of conservative values is the cause of this problem in the US is patently absurd, given that it is far further right socially than the vast majority of Europe.

ffs Lucium just tried to say Trump is all about family matters. ya dude, the guy who cheated on his pregnant wife and then divorced. the guy who raped one of his wifes. they guy who has absolutely nothing to do with one of his daughters and only paid attention to the other bc he wwanted to **** her. great conservative family values jfc.

You propose that everyone be homeschooled? And how do the parents simultaneously work a job and homeschool their kids? And regular parents are supposed to be capable of teaching every subject, 30 years after they half-assedly studied it (if ever)?

Your alternative: if your family is poor then you're SOL?

Your alternative: if your family isn't filthy rich, you're SOL and left to die?

Caring about more people than just you and your relatives isn't bad behavior. I think you're right that conservatives only care about themselves and their blood, and they DGAF what happens to the rest of the population. I call that selfishness, a bad trait.

I think it's pretty well documented. You might enjoy this:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/fir...nam-alone.html


I think it has to be at least one important factor. Maybe there are other causes: technology, increasing diversity, mass consumption, etc. But it sure seems like a clear throughline to me that churches have historically been an anchor for social and civic life and I don't see a lot of secular substitutes.


idk what the "natural state" of humanity is, but I def think it's unhealthy and dangerous to have people tuning out the public sphere and becoming lonely, atomized units of consumption. Voter apathy is maybe reason #1 Trump is president.

Luciom, which ethnic groups value their families the least?

I'm still accepting lower taxes and free trade.

To argue that Medicare, Parental Leave, SNAP, and Planned Parenthood are ANTI-FAMILY policies is quite a novel approach.

I'd say that conservatives who fight tooth and nail against these are selfish ****s who don't give a **** about anyone's family except their own but that's just me.

Dvaut,

Getting rid of church and replacing it with nothing is problematic in the same way that amputating a gangrene-infected leg would also not be optimal, but it's still far better than leaving it up there to fester.

But dvaut is right. He mistakenly thought l disagreed with him because l added another reason to dislike religion. But his pro religion arguments are stronger when applied to average Americans who have no interest in knowing anything or accomplishing anything of significance

Oh you can have decent welfare which is pro family, and some part of those programs is profamily.

What is absolutely and completly ANTI FAMILY is the idea, widespread on the left, that the state can and should be able to substitute family in all those roles and there is no moral duty of individuals to care for family members and to sacrifice anything for them.

Basically you stopped shaming people who disregard their family duties. While that was the glue that held society togheter.

You see real conservaties (i am not one of them but i respect them and i think there are right about family) are pro life (i am not) but at least they shower money on families with babies. Do you understand that? of course in the usa ideas get corrupted to their worst all the time so you manage to have people who are pro life and against helping struggling families with minors. You have one example i can think of and it is mormons (and not all of them). They are coherent conservatives. Check McMullin, that's conservatism in an almost pure form.

But if you don't see how allowing people for widespread abdication of family duties, culturally, deprives society of the glue that held it togheter, then you are in good company with many other people who thought family was a tribal relic irrelevant in modernity and the state would suffice.

Problem is in the USA they didn't get rid of church , like, at all.

What declined are the mainline, reasonable, not-extremist denominations.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...of-u-s-adults/

Like, those places of aggregation that weren't entirely focused on propaganda and ideology, but were mostly thought of as... decent places of aggregation among decent people with positive intentions.

I propose school to be complimentary to family education. School is a tool to keep your kids somewhere while you work, and trying not to completly waste that time. Civic education in schools is a silly idea. The idea that school is the place where a citizen is made is a leftist , terrible wrong, myth.
The best meal of your week should be at home, not like now for many failing families the meal at school being the only complete and satisfying meal. Parents should learn to properly prepare food before having children.
Of course all this not in a mandatory way. But culture, society, should push people toward that, valuing people that educate their children as better people than those that don't. Giving value, status, privilege to well organized and well behaved families. Not disregarding the topic completly and focusing on other behaviour to punish.

Like your society currently punishes anybody who tells a racist joke 100x more than a parent that can't cook for his children or who doesn't vaccinate them. That's how insanely bad your priorities are.

In italy poor families come up with a room and a spaghetti dish for family members with troubles all the time. The idea that 30-40% of americans won't be able to get 300$ from family in case of emergency (i remember a poll on this very topic with those numbers) is... so sad i can't describe it in words.

And taking care of elders requires time much more than money. Requires you for example to take the old person in your home as normality in many cases.

Like why don't you do that to any extent close to how often we do that in italy or japan? old person alone with various health problems, he/she sells her house, and with her pension living togheter financial resources pooled are much more effective. That's NORMALITY in countries that value family highly. Then yes you go to the hospital and it's the public paying. Complementary help from the state, why not, it works.

But the idea that old-people home are the standard is monstrous.

Caring about your blood more than about strangers, and expecting more from your own blood than from strangers, is biologically sound and reasonable. This doesn't mean not caring at all ever for strangers. But it means getting your priorities straight.

Oh and it is also terribly antifamily to spread the lie that women and men are exactly the same with regards to rearing babies and so women should not ever compromise anything even if they want to have babies.

It is a lie because nursing is crucial to a baby wellbeing and that can only be done by women, so arrangements should be taken to have the woman close to the baby in the first 6-12 months as much as possible, to give milk on demand from the body (not from a bottle) 6-7-8 times per day. Ton of research shows that helps a lot for immunitary system, emotional well being of the baby and so on.

European countries get it and accept that part-time work is overwhelmingly a choice of women more than men, and set up arrangements in favor of part time in order to help women have their role in society.

In america the left is going to another direction entirely going full-negationist on female role in childrearing and that isn't helping at all.

man does this guy literally just try to ruin every thread with his walls of nonsense framed in hyperbolic absolutes?

five 1k word essays in a row? dude shut the **** up

like if he was actually dropping knowledge or schooling people on some dvaut style posting then cool, but this guy is just some disingenuous troll spending all day generalizing from some warped perspective like "conservatives are the real embodiment of family values in america"

GTFO with ur dezinformatsiya

grunching a bit,

this is made harder by us conservatives not being interested in good, competent government at all, but a lot of conservative economic ideas are right. the free markets and supply side reforms have a lot of merit.

also back in the day eugenics was a pretty progressive idea and got pushback from religious conservatives i think

wtf? thread is about "things conservatives have been right about". Family. The importance of family above anything else for society well being. Conservatives have been talking about that for a long time. Conservatives isn't the current republican party btw. The thread isn't about current GOP.

There are plenty of conservatives around the world and some survived in america as well. And they all talk about family values as the pillar of society. And they are right.

I should know better than to bite with you but...

One culture that places family value above all else is China (somewhere I'm quite familiar with), hinted at by your "the demographic that by far is doing best in the us (Asians) has a deeply held culture that puts family much higher as a priority".

China is also socially ****ed. If some random person gets knocked off their bike in Shanghai, people will just watch instead of rushing to help them. This is a direct result of having a state that has always refused to take any active involvement in supporting people in need and tells its citizens that their only responsibility is to their family.

Going full eugenics?

You're right, it was an idea supported by progressive such as HG Wells but strangely interest in it seems to have dwindled after the 1930s.

hmmm now we seem to be getting somewhere

i wasn't and haven't been reading his posts, but in skimming i saw a lot of fervor and hyperbolic terms about how much leftists hate family in america, and i was wondering what the end game was (was i really tho?). found it.

tl;dr only conservatives love family in america, blacks are lazy and irresponsible, republican social and economic policies are necessary to punish them

KISS (am i doing this right?)

and lol, kids dont learn **** about civics in american schools, but that's par for the course for a guy who is just disingenuously trolling in every thread