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Old 10-26-2017, 02:22 PM   #201
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Originally Posted by All-In Flynn View Post
There are all kinds of reasons why dating in the workplace is a bad idea, starting with what happens if it ends badly. I suppose I'm already importing the notion of not being an *******, but I'm just not seeing any innate problem of the kind you're referring to. Wherever there's an in-built power imbalance, for sure, I can see that, and in, for example, small workplaces, those are often present even between notional equals. But if you're working for a relatively large company and there's a culture of socialising after work hours, hookups and whatnot are basically inevitable, and I don't see it as innately objectionable.
The other possibility is that work cultures that promote going out and drinking after work with your coworkers are problematic.

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Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
I don't think sternly written HR policy is going to be terribly effective at curbing one of humanity's most primal urges. We're hard wired to mate up pretty much anywhere and everywhere a suitable partner might be found.

Do women get a say in the new "don't date at work" rule, or are we forcing this on them out of concerned patriarchy because some of us guys just can't help being gropey and creepy without official corporate strictures?
"Can't help being gropey" is a bit of a benign way to put it. Some people actively use their workplace power to exploit people they have power over. It's not some oops-accidental-gropiness. You can sternly say "being a predator is bad," but that doesn't really deter the predator or help other people identify who they are. Clarifying that all sexual overtures at work are bad would make it easier to identify the predators, because you no longer have to distinguish between well-intentioned groping and malevolent groping. It's all bad!
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:43 PM   #202
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Originally Posted by DVaut1 View Post
Related, in another thread, I advised that trying to date at all at work is usually a bad idea. Again, charitably, note why. Taking everyone at their word (not that you should take Halperin at his word): these women are harassed and creeped out. Halperin seems to acknowledge at least the broad outlines of the incidents ("I did some things but disagree with the specifics and interpretations") and apologizes for 'pursuing relationships.'

Note how easily this all goes away if we could universally frown on pursuing relationships at work as a social convention the same way we would frown on someone who openly watched porn on their phone in the lunch room or used ethnic slurs or was rude to clients/customers or something. Then one someone does it, they could lose the benefit of the doubt and everyone would understand why you are jeopardizing your professional career by engaging in the conduct REGARDLESS of your own self estimation of your intent and what happened. Just a bright line you don't cross.

Again, maybe I sound like an uptight robotic capitalist but: go to work to work. Find dates somewhere else.
this is pretty bull****ty, creeps who grab women and press their dicks against them aren’t doing it because their isn’t a rule against it, there is. They do it because they have power over their victims and have no idea how to treat people around them.

Last edited by kerowo; 10-26-2017 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:44 PM   #203
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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This point is true.

When you misuse an insult or overuse it, it loses its potency. In some cases, the word is actually reappropriated by the insulted group and spun as a positive description. People used to be called geeks and nerds as an insult and in response, those groups took those labels, applied it to themselves and turned it into a positive label. We already see Trump supporters doing that with 'deplorables'.

I think it's reasonable to make distinctions between varying degrees of racists and not lump everybody with racist thoughts into the same category as the Richard Spencers of the world. This doesn't mean that we should necessarily let the little things slide or go unnoticed. It only means that by exaggerating minor transgressions and aggressively admonishing those who make them, we push them towards the groups we compare them to and away from anybody who can try to reform them.
Conservatives ***** about everything getting called racist, but they're just trying to poison the well. Like, fly doesn't just go around calling everyone racist at random, contrary to what the SMP crowd tells you.

Also, we already tried this! The term "micro-aggression" was coined precisely to politely describe racism-lite situations like wearing blackface for Halloween, and instead of fostering a dialogue, it led to conservatives whining about political correctness and deciding the whole thing is bull****.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:45 PM   #204
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Has there ever been a sexual harassment suit that was awarded 30 million? Rape? Anything even close?

I read the NYT article and not only does O'Reilly claim 100% innocence, he says he has iron clad proof. But he is not going to reveal it because he just wants to end things quickly and not put his family through the burden. His kids are very lucky imo. Sucks for those of us waiting for all the facts to come in before we form an opinion.
If he had proof he wouldnít have settled. Donít be ****ing stupid like his audience.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:58 PM   #205
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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The other possibility is that work cultures that promote going out and drinking after work with your coworkers are problematic.
Work is already ****ty for basically most people. Proscribing the ability to vent about shared grievances in a relaxed environment will make it even ****tier.

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"Can't help being gropey" is a bit of a benign way to put it. Some people actively use their workplace power to exploit people they have power over. It's not some oops-accidental-gropiness. You can sternly say "being a predator is bad," but that doesn't really deter the predator or help other people identify who they are. Clarifying that all sexual overtures at work are bad would make it easier to identify the predators, because you no longer have to distinguish between well-intentioned groping and malevolent groping. It's all bad!
There's nothing magic about 'the workplace', though. Every environment features power dynamics. There is nothing except your own innate reasonableness to stop this logic being applied to literally every walk of life.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:00 PM   #206
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Do women get a say in the new "don't date at work" rule, or are we forcing this on them out of concerned patriarchy because some of us guys just can't help being gropey and creepy without official corporate strictures?
Yeah, we are really veering into infantilisation territory here, I think.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:18 PM   #207
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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There's nothing magic about 'the workplace', though. Every environment features power dynamics. There is nothing except your own innate reasonableness to stop this logic being applied to literally every walk of life.
By definition, if you don't want to be reasonable, there is nothing to stop you from making all kinds of unreasonable arguments. It's almost a requirement.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:27 PM   #208
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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By definition, if you don't want to be reasonable, there is nothing to stop you from making all kinds of unreasonable arguments. It's almost a requirement.
Right, but all you'll be able to say to someone doing that is that you think they're being unreasonable in applying the logic you yourself have presented. You won't be able to make any argument that they're actually wrong, except maybe that the workplace is different for some reason.

And I mean, flesh this out for me. We instill a norm that workplace dating is bad. Two of your co-workers start dating. What do you do, frown at them? Do you frown more at one than at the other, and if so, which?
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:28 PM   #209
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

Scott Brown, the American ambassador to Samoa (who knew?), facing criticism for telling a server she should come to America and make way more money because of her looks

In which the former senator could probably learn a thing or two about not digging deeper:

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In a video interview with the New Zealand news website Stuff, his wife by his side, he tried to cast his words as innocent compliments that had been taken the wrong way.

“We saw these kids prior to and they were all dirty and kind of grungy,” he said. “Well, we walked [into the banquet] and everyone really was dressed to the nines. They all looked great. Gail looked great. I was dressed up. I said, ‘You guys look beautiful. You look really handsome, sir.’ And apparently somebody took offense to that. Fine. I did say that. Gail and I did say it.”
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Old 10-26-2017, 05:09 PM   #210
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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this is pretty bull****ty, creeps who grab women and press their dicks against them aren’t doing it because their isn’t a rule against it, there is. They do it because they have power over their victims and have no idea how to treat people around them.
That's not how they justify to themselves, though. Nobody thinks they are being an abusive creep.

And I'm not saying there should be a social norm against it or we should look down on people who do it, but just as general life advice for everyone, male and female... unless you're stationed at an Antarctic research station or something I really think you can find someone outside your office! There's a great big world out there and I'm skeptical that the hot intern is your one and only soulmate because she laughs when you make fun of the office grouch or whatever.

Last edited by FlyWf; 10-26-2017 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 10-26-2017, 05:15 PM   #211
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Do women get a say in the new "don't date at work" rule, or are we forcing this on them out of concerned patriarchy because some of us guys just can't help being gropey and creepy without official corporate strictures?
The latter for me.
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Old 10-26-2017, 05:32 PM   #212
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Originally Posted by All-In Flynn View Post
Right, but all you'll be able to say to someone doing that is that you think they're being unreasonable in applying the logic you yourself have presented. You won't be able to make any argument that they're actually wrong, except maybe that the workplace is different for some reason.
I may be an unusually skilled debater, but if someone wants to come at me and say that there isn't a meaningful difference in the relationship between a man and a female subordinate and a man and a woman he meets at a party ("it's all just power dynamics!"), I feel confident in my ability to meet that challenge.

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And I mean, flesh this out for me. We instill a norm that workplace dating is bad. Two of your co-workers start dating. What do you do, frown at them? Do you frown more at one than at the other, and if so, which?
TBD
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Old 10-26-2017, 06:21 PM   #213
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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I may be an unusually skilled debater, but if someone wants to come at me and say that there isn't a meaningful difference in the relationship between a man and a female subordinate and a man and a woman he meets at a party ("it's all just power dynamics!"), I feel confident in my ability to meet that challenge.
You very well may be an unusually skilled debater, but it only takes a hack to present an already-conceded point as the one in contention. I've already said Don't **** Down. That wasn't good enough for you, remember? You wanted a wholesale ban on workplace dating, hierarchical parity be damned, and along with that bathwater you were willing to throw out the baby of socialising with workmates at all.

Your job, if you feel like it, is to explain why we shouldn't throw out the baby of anything outside of chastely-negotiated contract marriages for purely procreative purposes. Or hell, IVF lotteries or something. Bearing in mind that "Because it seems unreasonable to me" isn't good enough, because you already seem pretty unreasonable to me with this notion of stigmatising workplace socialising.

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TBD
You have strong opinions for a man with no idea what he actually thinks, I must say.
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:46 PM   #214
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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It worked in Brave New World.
One of my favourite utopian novels.
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:56 PM   #215
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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That's not how they justify to themselves, though. Nobody thinks they are being an abusive creep.

And I'm not saying there should be a social norm against it or we should look down on people who do it, but just as general life advice for everyone, male and female... unless you're stationed at an Antarctic research station or something I really think you can find someone outside your office! There's a great big world out there and I'm skeptical that the hot intern is your one and only soulmate because she laughs when you make fun of the office grouch or whatever.
What makes you think they need to justify it. No one tells them not to do it, so why shouldn't they? Thinking that dating at the office has anything to do with sexual harassment is ridiculous on the face of it.
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:25 PM   #216
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

I was under the impression that some significant percentage of marriages began as office flings.

If true, should that influence our opinion on norms about dating colleagues? What if like 30% of the time Americans meet their life partners in the workplace?
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:56 PM   #217
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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I was under the impression that some significant percentage of marriages began as office flings.
The stat in the other thread was 20%.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:30 PM   #218
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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The stat in the other thread was 20%.
People spend 60 hours a week for years on end working in confined spaces with people who've got key common interests (assuming job is a vocation of sorts).

Groping interns is terribad, but having coffee or lunch with a colleague you've got chemistry with while taking things slowly / cautiously is something else entirely. If you're autistic or a basement dweller or something then I'm ok with avoiding dating coworkers entirely. But there's a reason so many people find the one at work, would be too bad if as a rule that door were closed, at least IMO.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:19 AM   #219
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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There's nothing magic about 'the workplace', though. Every environment features power dynamics. There is nothing except your own innate reasonableness to stop this logic being applied to literally every walk of life.
I'm making a principally ethical case, not a legal one, but you know there's a whole Title of USC with 30 chapters of something dedicated strictly to labor law and regulations, there's a whole executive department for it, some Constitutional amendments touch on it and notable SCOTUS cases deal precisely with the workplace and its special role in society.

Perhaps we can use that as a guidepost to note that actually, yes, there is something kind of magical, exceptional and unique about the workplace that deserves special considerations for how we treat each other.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:23 AM   #220
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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this is pretty bull****ty, creeps who grab women and press their dicks against them arenít doing it because their isnít a rule against it, there is. They do it because they have power over their victims and have no idea how to treat people around them.
Sure. There will always be bad people in the world. We construct norms and guidelines to mark out what's acceptable and what's not, and bad or non-existent norms or murky norms and social conventions are where unscrupulous bad people, or selfish and unaware people can thrive under the ambiguity.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:38 AM   #221
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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You're thinking of a hierarchical structure, I think. There are plenty of situations where co-workers are at an equal standing in whatever hierarchy. There's already a norm (and sometimes laws, IIRC) surrounding sexual activity between teaching staff and students, as there should be. There's no norm surrounding students and students, nor should there be. I'm happy to cosign something along the lines of 'Managers shouldn't date subordinates', but I have way more misgivings about making it universal. Don't **** down, let's say.
No, I'm not thinking of a hierarchical structure specifically. I do agree there are some potential exception cases where you would relax hypothetical norms and I've made them. Part of the perniciousness of even 'soft' sexual harassment or the potential discomfort of romance at work is that it specifically burdens ambitious and aspirational people. Think of all the notable examples of O'Reilly, Halperin, Weinstein, etc. essentially trying to trading career advancement, access and perceived job benefits for sex. That works at all levels and all jobs and yes, is felt PARTLY because of the hierarchical considerations but PARTLY because it targets specifically women who are trying to advance and are ambitious and want long term careers in their industry. I think if you actually look around at the #MeToo stories and make a mental inventory as you read them, you'll notice that the victims ARE usually more high status, successful women. That's partly for lots of reasons, many of which may simply be access / size of audience to tell the story, but also because it's pretty clearly a common experience for specifically ambitious women. Consciously or not, I suspect there are lots of men who are hip to precisely this fact and are plying female ambition and unclear workplace norms in these areas to take advantage of the power dynamic -- that is, women can easily get effectively black balled and develop unfair reputations for being perceived as bitchy and not playing along.

And so, as I said: if the job is sort of transient, or for younger people not really on career tracks, whatever, perhaps we could excuse people who are excessively flirting at work or dating or whatever. I went back to like two people who work in food service; say two baristas at Starbucks who are flirting or whatever. Am I looking for their manager to aggressively monitor and police that behavior? Probably not. Take say instead two sales professionals in an office; should norms exist to prevent them from dating? Should co-workers be vigilant and look down on sex jokes, various dating pre-ritual stuff, etc.? Probably?

If I were a master of the universe, I'd probably just wish we had social norms against all of it and call it a day. That's not to say it's ****ing open season to start harassing young women in this or that menial job or that. And I'll repeat that I'm not naive enough to think workplace romance would ever go away.

But I think it's important to recognize that even in relationships with ~relatively equal power dynamics, a work culture that allows for romantic overtures and dating and flirting or whatever else is one that will necessarily make it hard for ambitious and career oriented people dealing with unwanted advances of any sort, even the 'appropriate' ones. The natural inclination is to brush it off and not make a big deal out of it because hey, we all got **** to do, who wants to sit in HR all day hashing this **** out, plus if you're a women, it can make you feel like you're not cooperative and a team player and aggressively bitchy or whatever.

Simply don't tolerate asking people out on dates, sexual banter, etc. and all the ambiguity goes away about what's tolerated and what's not. It's clear who's in the wrong.

Again, I think work culture conventions that are like "dating? -> OK; flirting? -> OK; harassment -> crosses the line" are precisely the sort of gradient areas where harassment can become surprisingly common. Draw the line further on the curve and get less of the really egregious behavior.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-27-2017 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:42 AM   #222
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

paralyzed by fear is the way to comport oneself
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:48 AM   #223
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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paralyzed by fear is the way to comport oneself
Worth reiterating these arguments should only work on the hilariously naive. I have been at my job since 2005 and never once have I: 1) hit on my coworkers or asked them out for dates or 2) been paralyzed at work

You can do it, I swear. You can go to work and talk about the baseball game last night, your camping trip this weekend, your dog, and heaven forfend, topics related to your ****ing job without trying to **** your co-workers and NOT undergo any physical or mental paralysis at all. Millions of people do this every day, I promise. Get the **** out of here with this ****. The only people who should worry about being literally paralyzed by fear due to a social norm that looks down on asking your coworkers to date are the kinds of people who have severe self control issues and why we may not need to wonder too long for why incredible amounts of women feel sexually harassed.

Again, sometimes worth reiterating these arguments at their core:

Everyone: wow, tons of sexual harassment out there, shocking
Me: hey, one factor might be permissive attitudes toward workplace dating and romance, we could perhaps not tolerate that
People ITT: woah woah woah, how do you expect us to overcome the crippling paralysis of having to control ourselves?!

I'm sure you're all lovely people, really, but the multitude and depth of the various "I can't control myself" apologetics ("love is so powerful! Chemistry! Having to think even a little bit about how I interact with women is paralysis!") are not very compelling.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-27-2017 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:57 AM   #224
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

Don't these inappropriately talking monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?

"Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here to grope.".
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:01 AM   #225
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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Again, I think work culture conventions that are like "dating? -> OK; flirting? -> OK; harassment -> crosses the line" are precisely the sort of gradient areas where harassment can become surprisingly common. Draw the line further on the curve and get less of the really egregious behavior.
Yeah, but this is a wild guess. The harassment in the headlines was not ok, yet it was done. You don't know that a more open environment where people less compartmentalized about business behavior and human behavior isn't less conducive to abuse. Perhaps people who feel more free with their regular human behavior more readily tell harassers to **** off while people who transform into proper behavior for the special magical workplace try to keep things professional and resist admitting that a perpetrator's behavior is unprofessional. People resist making a big deal about things. If someone is getting hit on and saying something about that means someone is fired and their friends all hate you maybe you're going to let things go and excuse them as not that important. I can make guesses too and mine seem right to me. I think empowering the individuals rather than the institution will has better results, and often that just means not giving power to institutions. When that happens people tend to surrender their own power. But, either way I can't really think of anything empirical, so it's just my guess.

At any rate, there's already something of a taboo about dating at work, so I assume you're suggesting something stronger than the conventional wisdom.
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