Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had? - Page 80 - Politics and Economics

For weinstein as i said i read coverage mostly about Argento's allegation. Basically he asked her to perform oral sex on her, she accepted, and i am supposed to think it is a crime or something.

He forcibly performed oral sex on her, which is a crime, yes. But more importantly, you think it's OK for famous people to rape children and you should go away now.

12-11-2017 , 01:23 PM

#1977

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

"it's oke for famous people to rape children"? no it's not.

Is it rape if deep in the night some1 at a party has no freaking idea about the age of some1 and tries to hit on him? no it's not. Is it "morally bad"? why should it be?

It is indeed bad if the boy says "hey i am 14" and the adult keeps going on. Then yes it is really bad.

Do we know spacey knew the boy was underage? you seem so sure.

lol

12-11-2017 , 01:24 PM

#1978

Luciom

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

How are you getting that Rapp was lying about his age? Rapp was a well-known actor on Broadway and Spacey surely knew who he was. They were starring in two of the biggest shows on Broadway at the time.

No need for him to lie, but where do you get spacey knew he was underage when he tried to hit on him? because that's the whole point right?

12-11-2017 , 01:25 PM

#1979

SenorKeeed

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

because Spacey was surely aware of who was acting in large Broadway productions? Because Rapp's age was widely known? This was linked to in the article you yourself linked to (and clearly didn't read)

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/03/21/th...-and-ivey.html

Quote:

IN the most affecting speech in George Furth's new play, ''Precious Sons,'' Freddy, a 14-year-old child of Chicago's South Side, describes the joy of the theater. The year is 1949, a golden time for the American stage, and Freddy (Anthony Rapp), a fledgling child actor, may soon be offered a small role in the national company of ''A Streetcar Named Desire.'' The boy's meek voice grows musical as he describes his past experiences acting in theaters in the Loop. ''Of all the things there are,'' he says, ''a stage play is far and wide the most wonderful thing.''

12-11-2017 , 01:25 PM

#1980

Luciom

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Quote:

Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

He forcibly performed oral sex on her, which is a crime, yes. But more importantly, you think it's OK for famous people to rape children and you should go away now.

Forcibly? he asked and she consented, this is what SHE says.

12-11-2017 , 01:28 PM

#1981

Luciom

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

This could work at 3pm, but not at 2am after hours of party. You are not supposed to be able to remember even most people names at that point, how can you remember their age??

What's the problem with you guys, can't the boy just remind him he is 14y old and no1 is hurt?

I mean you seem to talk as if he used forced on the boy, knowing he was 14, and raped him.

I don't understand you americans.

12-11-2017 , 01:29 PM

#1982

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Forcibly? he asked and she consented, this is what SHE says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The New Yorker

Asia Argento, an Italian film actress and director, said that she did not speak out until now—Weinstein, she told me, forcibly performed oral sex on her—because she feared that Weinstein would “crush” her. “I know he has crushed a lot of people before,” Argento said. “That’s why this story—in my case, it’s twenty years old, some of them are older—has never come out.”

**** off, will you? Maybe your backwater hovel of a country can't teach its kids how to read anymore, that's not my problem.

12-11-2017 , 01:30 PM

#1983

SenorKeeed

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

No need for him to lie, but where do you get spacey knew he was underage when he tried to hit on him? because that's the whole point right?

Because Spacey knew who he was, what role he was playing, had spoken to him before. Because his age was the most notable thing about his performance (14-year-old giving a great performance on Broadway!) and it was commented on in extremely high profile reviews of his play?

Why do you think Spacey DIDN'T know how old he was? Note that EVEN SPACEY didn't try to employ this defense.

12-11-2017 , 01:31 PM

#1984

SenorKeeed

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

I'm beginning to understand you Italians

12-11-2017 , 01:51 PM

#1985

All-In Flynn

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Anyway. **** that guy, normal service resumes. Angela Nagle continues her downward spiral, tweeting this article by Claire Berlinski. It starts out reasonably well and makes some points at least worthy of consideration. It gets a bit ropey around Westminster, then arrives at Louis CK and falls off a ****ing cliff:

Quote:

What Louis CK did is not as banal as offering a woman a backrub or touching her knee. But it’s exactly what you’d expect from him if you’d ever watched his routines. If the man has a delusional view of the appeal to women of watching a self-loathing man whack off, shouldn’t it be relevant to our moral assessment that we, the American public, are the ones who nourished this delusion with applause, laughter, money, and massive crowds at Madison Square Garden screaming his name? How can we suddenly be so censorious upon discovering that he took his onstage act to its logical extension in his hotel room?

Yeah, I mean, I for one fully expect Gallagher to someday be caught burning crop yields. Just look at his act!

Quote:

What makes the reaction to this all the weirder is that the women in question were comedians. Didn’t they see the potential? This is gold! It’s going to bring the house down. Sure, tell the whole world and humiliate the hell out of him—obviously he had that coming. But “outraged and shocked?” Grim faces and utter solemnity? Seriously?

Go **** yourself.

Quote:

But either way, I wouldn’t be surprised if now he hangs himself, because obviously, it isn’t all just an act. I expect everyone to be shocked, shocked, when he does.

Yeah, I hope his accusers will at least have the decency to apologise to his orphaned children when he kills himself. The least they could do.

Quote:

They’re literally going to airbrush Spacey out of All The Money, like water commissar Nikolai Yezhov in that photo of the Moscow Canal. Comrade Spacey has been vaporized. He’s an unperson. Long live Comrade Ogilvy. Isn’t anyone a bit spooked by this?

No, because it's a ****ing commercial decision made by a ****ing corporation because they're worried people won't want to see the ****ing picture now they know how much of a ****ing skeeve Spacey is. Pravda didn't run ****ing articles about people being airbrushed out of photographs, you ****ing dunce.

It continues in the broad vein of blah blah, show trials, moral panic, yada yada. The thing is, I agree that this is a pendulum swing, and that there is some point past which the swing would need to either stop or go too far. And I agree, too, that there are a small number of stories where the transgression is so minor or so far past that while it was indeed a transgression, it's hardly newsworthy. But whatever force eventually stops the pendulum can't be allowed to so much as vaguely resemble this Berlinski person.

12-11-2017 , 02:01 PM

#1986

SenorKeeed

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

If the rule of law has to be preserved, what is needed is exactly to avoid having an opinion on wether crimes have been committed or not and to defer to the courts for that.

Which is exactly what you and plenty of other people are not doing in this situation.

The amount of accusation toward some1 who is clearly hated deeply are not proof of anything if not the deep hatred toward him in a specific community.

Hatred which could of course have a rational basis, if those allegations are true, but which can't be used as proof of crime.

This is exactly why we don't let the mob decide

So wait. You're saying absent a rape conviction, people shouldn't be fired from their jobs for sexual harassment/misconduct? Because getting fired from jobs is all that has happened to Weinstein, Spacey, Lauer, CK, etc.

12-11-2017 , 02:01 PM

#1987

iron81

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Australia is mostly easy btw, can't get Tasmania though.

State	Counterpart	Reasoning
Tasmania	???	Nice wilderness, mild climate, nice to visit, largest city like 250K people

Maine? Not sure, haven't been there. Colorado, Denver is too big. Montana and Wyoming a bit too redneck.

New Mexico. Definitely New Mexico.

12-11-2017 , 02:22 PM

#1988

otatop

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Where in my posts did i write "retrograde opinions about women"???

25 minutes later...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Forcibly? he asked and she consented, this is what SHE says.

12-11-2017 , 02:23 PM

#1989

Rococo

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Mario Batali's public statement basically amounted to: "I wasn't given the names of my accusers, but the alleged conduct is pretty much how I roll, so I'm sure they are telling the truth."

12-11-2017 , 02:28 PM

#1990

SenorKeeed

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by far the best response/apology I've seen so far

Quote:

“I apologize to the people I have mistreated and hurt,” said Batali in a statement obtained by Eater. “Although the identities of most of the individuals mentioned in these stories have not been revealed to me, much of the behavior described does, in fact, match up with ways I have acted. That behavior was wrong and there are no excuses. I take full responsibility and am deeply sorry for any pain, humiliation or discomfort I have caused to my peers, employees, customers, friends and family.

“I have work to do to try to regain the trust of those I have hurt and disappointed. For this reason, I am going to step away from day-to-day operations of my businesses. We built these restaurants so that our guests could have fun and indulge, but I took that too far in my own behavior. I won’t make that mistake again. I want any place I am associated with to feel comfortable and safe for the people who work or dine there.

"I know my actions have disappointed many people. The successes I have enjoyed are owned by everyone on my team. The failures are mine alone. To the people who have been at my side during this time — my family, my partners, my employees, my friends, my fans — I am grateful for your support and hopeful that I can regain your respect and trust. I will spend the next period of time trying to do that.”

12-11-2017 , 02:31 PM

#1991

SuperUberBob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

For weinstein as i said i read coverage mostly about Argento's allegation. Basically he asked her to perform oral sex on her, she accepted, and i am supposed to think it is a crime or something.

Coerced consent is not consent.

Rape apologists like you should not be given the time of day.

My ignore list continues to get larger.

12-11-2017 , 03:49 PM

#1992

will1530

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Being fired because multiple teenagers accuse you of rape and/or assault, gross injustice.

Being forced to give a gross fat man a bj to have any shot at furthering your career, perfectly acceptable.

12-11-2017 , 03:49 PM

#1993

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Truant

No. In a world where might makes right, physical domination created a lasting imbalance in power structure of societies, so it is not that telling that most achievements that you care to site are going to be by men. Testosterone is not the causative factor except that it provides the cleaner path in the way society is set up.

Women have not been invited to participate and have actively been banned from most resources and activities that lead to "achievement".They are still not encouraged, or rewarded or recognized the same and face headwinds not shared by men. A mediocre white male has much more opportunity to see an idea come to fruition than many brilliant women do. But yeah maybe it's the balls.

The same is true for the other side of this argument. Women have the capacity to be as destructive and evil as men but not the same opportunities.

This doesn't seem like it particularly responds to anything I said.

Why is it that women are supposedly (according to your post) reliant upon men to "invite them to participate" before they can achieve things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycosid

Most of the achievements (or at least the attribution) go to men because for most of human history women have been held by force in a social class whose status was set somewhere between housepet and sexual slave. It's like acknowledging that most of the achievements of the antebellum South are attributable to white plantation owners. Which is an instructive example, because we know now with hindsight that the South was actually an incredibly stagnant society, developmentally, and fell way behind its northern counterparts economically and technologically in just a few decades despite an enormous advantage in natural resources.

Basically, your second paragraph is correct, except that we can pretty confidently surmise that a simulation that didn't exclude half its population from science and development for thousands of years would probably outrun one that did.

In your first paragraph, I disagree that you can explain gender disparities in the same way as racial ones. Your second paragraph I agree with completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrModern

I picture TiltedDonkey sitting somewhere in an ergonomic computer chair watching Mike Cernovich videos on one monitor while he multi-tables on the other, all the while yelling like Tuff Fish and bumping small amounts of various nootropics that help release the galaxy brain power of his naturally high T-levels.

I don't need nootropics, I'm already an elite level genius. The rest is obviously correct.

12-11-2017 , 04:01 PM

#1994

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

"This heavily drugged person is just showing their true colors" has gotten to be one of the WOAT takes regarding human behavior. If that's actually how they are then they wouldn't need some sort of intoxicant to bring it out they would just behave that way all the time.

Our personalities are largely defined by our inhibitions, and using alcohol to lessen or remove them doesn't show you someone's true colors anymore than their behavior on LSD or a dose of sodium pentathol would.

This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Ye i agree, this is an accusation of rape and the gravity of that (if true) is very high. But it's justice that has to answer to that. Not public opinion.

I had focused on Argento "accusations" and similar things, where basically the purported "crime" had been to ask for sex, and i was commenting on that.

You still can't call him a rapist only on accusations though. Thats a basic rule of civil society that you guys are breaking right here.

We are not required to adhere to beyond a reasonable doubt standards here on a message board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisV

You're confusing the role of legal certainty here. From a moral point of view, or a civil society point of view if you like, what matters when I call Weinstein a rapist is the question of truth, that is, is he actually a rapist? You're correct that it's immoral and dangerous to make judgements about people when facts are uncertain. When a guy has 92 women accusing him, including 18 credible independent accusations of rape, the facts are not uncertain. Legal proof is simply the best method we know of for approximating what actually matters (the truth) in a way not susceptible to tyranny and abuse of power. The check on me calling Weinstein a rapist is not norms of civil society, but his right to sue me for libel if what I say is not true. Strangely, I don't think I will be hearing from his lawyers.

It's a bit of a soapbox of mine that people confuse civic institutions (the rule of law, democracy) with moral justification. Despite how often you hear "let the people decide" like that's a moral injunction, there is nothing moral at all about majorities holding power over minorities. Democracy is simply the only way we have yet discovered to avoid tyranny.

Pretty much everyone who does this (i.e. "well it's probably true, but you NEED PROOF before you can say it on a message board poast") is just bull****ting. What they really believe is that either (a) these people are innocent or (b) they are probably guilty but should face no consequences.

12-11-2017 , 04:25 PM

#1995

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Man, if no one ever said anything on the internet that wouldn't work in court, this would be a pretty boring place.

12-11-2017 , 04:30 PM

#1996

Johnny Truant

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Jfc. Even for the justice system the standard of proving beyond a reasonable doubt is of limited value in the real world. It only pertains to the legal system, nothing more.

A crime that can never be proven still occurred.

12-11-2017 , 04:41 PM

#1997

hobbes9324

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"whose life has been destroyed in America?"

Maybe the Duke lacrosse players? Though that was pretty much a perfect storm of scumbag journalism, skeevy accusation maker, and total willingness to believe the worst about a particular group of people based on a stereotype.

MM MD

12-11-2017 , 05:21 PM

#1998

EddyB66

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hobbes9324

I mean I guess serving a prison sentence during the prime of your fighting career isn't having your life destroyed.

12-11-2017 , 05:26 PM

#1999

hobbes9324

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I was just picking one that came to mind. Have at it.

MM MD

12-11-2017 , 06:41 PM

#2000

rugby

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Lol at this guy.

Highlight was absolutely "one of the worst things i can think of is having your career ruined by false accusations"

Hint. This is a conversation about rape. Try a little harder and you might be able to think of something worse.

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