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Old 10-25-2017, 08:40 PM   #151
MrWookie
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Slater is a very dedicated troll. The **** he posts is so outlandish I refuse to believe its sincere.
Who cares about sincerity? If you post exclusively misogyny, there is no reason to take such a person as anything other than a misogynist.
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:55 PM   #152
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

LOL they were so ****ing happy about Weinstein
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:58 PM   #153
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by A_C_Slater View Post
"In this country, first you have to get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women." -- Tony Montana
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I expect women to hold up their end of the social contract. All my life movies and television have told me that if I work hard and acquire wealth then women above my league will want to have sex with me. Now If I were to suddenly find out I had work hard my whole life for nothing, well I am going to be very angry. And if I can't get what I was promised from the social contract, then I will gladly violate the social contract as well and simply take what I want. There are no games to be played here, the one thing a culture cannot do is fu*k with a man's libidinal energies.
man, if you interpret these two poasts as serious...

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Old 10-25-2017, 08:59 PM   #154
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Maybe they're all so busy picking up hot girls that they don't have time for being angry *******s on the internet.
like is this poast also CLEARLY BY A MISOGYNIST?
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:39 PM   #155
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

Ol' Herb Walker playing some slapass
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:45 PM   #156
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

Dude's in his 90's and almost dead. Let him pat some butt.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:57 PM   #157
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Furthermore, what about college students who are...employed by the university!?
"Don't date your students" is almost literally the first thing they told me when I was a TA.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:15 PM   #158
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Sexual harassment being so closely tied to the workplace is partly because of the ready made power imbalance, but also for the same reasons so many relationships start at work- Proximity and hours present. Women get harassed literally everywhere, but that's where the victims and perpetrators spend most of their time, and also where there is any semblance of consistent available recourse.

I met my wife when we both worked briefly in a casino--definitely was not career path employment. Dating coworkers was very common in that environment. I know I got lucky because almost every romantic relationship, regardless of where it starts, doesn't work out.

Some industries and companies seem to have a lot more couples in them, even in their corporate office. I know quite a few married couples who met at work at various levels. Service, sales, and hospitality workers often date. My sister met her husband in the service industry. I wouldn't doubt there is more actual harassment in those jobs that goes hand in hand with the permissiveness, though my gut says less reporting or real consequences also.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:30 PM   #159
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

The guy is near death and can't lift his arms properly so they sometimes go around a girl's rear depending on her height and he plays it off as a joke due to embarrassment.

I agree that the joke is offensive and rude but there's a big difference between what H.W. and Weinstein did (though both likely fall under sexual harassment).

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Old 10-25-2017, 10:57 PM   #160
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Yeah there's that sort of irony. Also this:

Women of society:
men seemingly can't help themselves sexually harassing people, #metoo
me: yeah you know, thinking on it, while I acknowledge it's not quite the same thing and it's a matter of degrees, one thing that might help to stop the endemic culture of workplace sexual harassment is to foster norms so that it is not appropriate to try to engage in any romantic pursuits at all on the job
men of 2p2: we can't help ourselves because chemistry, what are you some kind of robot, have you ever worked closely with a women, these things just happen somehow, it can't be helped

Arguments that make you go hmm. The general feeling seems to be that OF COURSE men must stop workplace sexual harassment but asking guys to stop trying to flirt and score dates on the job, whoa whoa whoa some things about human nature simply cannot be changed, these are just natural impulses people have and cannot be helped or controlled in any way. Or the old "the lack of agency and self control from doing X" is a heinous blight on humanity and must be stopped but "the lack of agency and self control from doing Y is just the natural state of the world, stop lecturing us" even as they acknowledge all the apologists for doing X regularly point to their natural impulses and ask you to back off
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Or maybe harassment is wrong but dating is not.
Right. I was not suggesting dating is harassment. What I said:

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Originally Posted by DVaut1 View Post
while I acknowledge it's not quite the same thing and it's a matter of degrees, one thing that might help to stop the endemic culture of workplace sexual harassment is to foster norms so that it is not appropriate to try to engage in any romantic pursuits at all on the job
Remember I'm being CHARITABLE to men here. Taking many of what I suspect are in fact post-hoc rationalizations ("I just asked her on a simple date, somehow I got hauled by the scruff of the neck into HR and got fired?! UNFAIR"), assuming the most CHARITABLE interpretation (the men in question aren't setting out to be predatory and make the women uncomfortable, have some measure of empathy and would feel guilty if they realize the women feel uncomfortable; they just clueless idiots who don't pick up clear social signals the woman isn't interested) and giving a path forward for how we could put a stop to the startling, incredible amount of women who report being sexually harassed at work. That is: stop trying to have sex with people at work. You can't get fired for a misunderstanding over the distinction between an innocent sexual advance or romantic overture and an unwanted, predatory one if you don't make them at all.

"But DVAULT11, sex isn't harassment, PEOPLE HAVE TO RECREATE or the species will die, go back to your PUA forum!"

Again, worth reiterating this is charitable advice. My gut tells me that in fact most men who are running around pleading the have been unfairly maligned because they were just flirting, being playful, asking someone out on a date, telling inappropriate sexual jokes, etc. are exactly what I described earlier: somewhere on the spectrum of socially maladapted, clueless, lacking self-awareness OR just the normal kind of ******* guys who get bored and horny at work and see all these women just sitting there not sucking their dick and try to find a solution irrespective of how the woman feels about that kind of attention.

I even sort of gave a bunch of outs here, like you're in some kind of job mostly for teenagers or that typically younger people work at, and you understandably don't know any better or you don't have much life experience, then it's a more forgivable type of thing. Forgetting harassment for the moment, which is always intolerable: If I were a manager and saw some teenage dude trying to flirt with his coworker working food service or retail or something I could forgive the guy for immaturity whereas I'd have much lower tolerance for it in any kind of professional role, although perhaps that too would be a mistake. I also gave a bunch of other reasons beyond harassment it's a bad idea since most people will regret having to work with either an ex or their spouse. I also acknowledge it's common to date at work and people have lots of bad habits, so I recognize my ideas aren't shared but then again there seems to be an incredible amount of sexual harassment and various associated predatory behaviors making women feel uncomfortable out there so I still maintain I'm onto something here.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-25-2017 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:08 PM   #161
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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...





lol wat. I've been married almost 14 years now. But you can read their forums, or MRA, or whatever affiliated groups and fellow travelers. It's not like they are unknowable.

...
Yeah, I mean, the reddit redpill sites are required reading for anybody interest in human behavior.

Which reminds me, I haven't explored them since the election.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:10 PM   #162
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

lol DVaut a PUA/MRA, that's ****ing banananas
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:19 PM   #163
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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"Don't date your students" is almost literally the first thing they told me when I was a TA.


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Old 10-25-2017, 11:34 PM   #164
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Lol at the idea of dvaut giving off a PUA vibe.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:35 PM   #165
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Honestly, for those of you who think dating your co-workers is a great idea: have none of you had an ugly breakup? Man, I fooled around with a fellow grad student and things got dramatacular and that was a rough two years even working in the same building with both of us wondering if our morning coffee would be spiked with ricin. I have no idea how you guys think spending a career working alongside a jilted ex is worth the risk.

Like, I get it: you spend time together and have common interests with people and there's going to be attraction and all that. OK, perfectly natural. That's when you act like poker players and grownups and evaluate the downside risk.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:36 PM   #166
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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I don't even think PUAs are a thing anymore, didn't they all glom onto 4chan or Reddit or some other hangout for angry socially dysfunctional weirdos?
Didn't they all become the Proud Boys?
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:42 PM   #167
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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lol DVaut a PUA/MRA, that's ****ing banananas
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Lol at the idea of dvaut giving off a PUA vibe.
I asked was he in it. Whenever people start talking low status males i get it. Was just wondering.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:56 PM   #168
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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I asked was he in it. Whenever people start talking low status males i get it. Was just wondering.
It's fine. This came up a month ago or whatever because these guys in this picture below truly are low status males and I think their sexual frustration is not inseparable from their reactionary right wing positions, and I wrote a lot about it:



I get it, when you prattle on about useless, unsexed guys that were historical cannon fodder or monument builders to their social betters but are now part of the torch bearing alt right, you sound sorta like them.

I said before as I'll say now: yes, these are unlovable repulsive idiots, but ldo women and society owe them nothing, they're just losers. But they've teamed up with old whites, the mega rich, other assorted deplorables, etc. so they've got a form of political power now, no doubt. And I guess we have to deal with that. And as I said then as I said now, they've been "victims" of a sort to social forces the same way white people who fled the cities for far flung suburban and exurban nows now decaying and in rot while property values in cities skyrocket and money flows into them are victims of their own bad decisions. You can still recognize the plight without justifying the racism and myopia and acknowledge the bad decisions.

That is, I think young men have been put into an extremely hyper competitive environment -- specially economic, with increasingly stratified outcomes -- piles of riches and respectability for some, disrespect and economic insecurity for everyone else -- such that even if they're decently wealthy to start, their lot in life going to third tier state schools and careers writing for garbage right-wing blogs has probably made them somewhat aware about their failures. They're anxious they're squandering their privilege and how it puts them into a demeaned role in life. Mix it with the pedestrian degredations they face anyway for being ****ing clowns and you get a REALLY repulsive person.

Couple that with social context that is now deeply impersonal and huge degraded media and content that they revel in (e.g., disgusting porn, extreme racism, whatever) -- it's a pretty toxic mix. No wonder they think the world is on the brink of collapse. I said this before but like 15 minutes on 4chan would make anyone wonder what the point of living is, and how can we burn this all down?

I've even granted that the left, insofar as it has embraced cultural and social libertine attitudes perhaps has made big mistakes. Like, all politics is a circle, so perhaps I'm veering toward my conservative side. Or maybe I've aged into an old fashioned social conservative, but I'm definitely warming to the idea that the dismissing organized religion as regressive and leaving America's sons to raise themselves on xbox and porn perhaps had some downstream knock-on effects we didn't consider; let's get these teens signed up for Little League or Cub Scouts something.

Anyway, ranting aside: These dudes make terrible decisions and are garbagey people, but we can recognize the larger social forces that exacerbate the problem. 2017 America is the mix of your standard fare garbage people coming together during bad times to spread misery and make a bad situation worse, as is the paradox of the human condition from time to time.

Anyway, I think the mix of "yep, these guys are unsexed losers but hey, aren't some of our holistic economic decisions, government policies, collective social rot deepening this mess?" makes me sound like I'm sympathetic with specially these guys instead of curious about how we can not live in a ****ty society.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-26-2017 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 10-26-2017, 12:30 AM   #169
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Old 10-26-2017, 12:58 AM   #170
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Dont think dating somebody at work is a good idea since best case scenario you're working with your spouse and who wants to do that?

That said, I thought we were debating whether men flirting with women at work skirts the line towards sexual harrasment, assuming both are at equal levels within the company.
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:25 AM   #171
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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WHIPPING OUT FLIFF LIKE A SULTAN
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:25 AM   #172
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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It's fine. This came up a month ago or whatever because these guys in this picture below truly are low status males and I think their sexual frustration is not inseparable from their reactionary right wing positions, and I wrote a lot about it:



I get it, when you prattle on about useless, unsexed guys that were historical cannon fodder or monument builders to their social betters but are now part of the torch bearing alt right, you sound sorta like them.

I said before as I'll say now: yes, these are unlovable repulsive idiots, but ldo women and society owe them nothing, they're just losers. But they've teamed up with old whites, the mega rich, other assorted deplorables, etc. so they've got a form of political power now, no doubt. And I guess we have to deal with that. And as I said then as I said now, they've been "victims" of a sort to social forces the same way white people who fled the cities for far flung suburban and exurban nows now decaying and in rot while property values in cities skyrocket and money flows into them are victims of their own bad decisions. You can still recognize the plight without justifying the racism and myopia and acknowledge the bad decisions.

That is, I think young men have been put into an extremely hyper competitive environment -- specially economic, with increasingly stratified outcomes -- piles of riches and respectability for some, disrespect and economic insecurity for everyone else -- such that even if they're decently wealthy to start, their lot in life going to third tier state schools and careers writing for garbage right-wing blogs has probably made them somewhat aware about their failures. They're anxious they're squandering their privilege and how it puts them into a demeaned role in life. Mix it with the pedestrian degredations they face anyway for being ****ing clowns and you get a REALLY repulsive person.

Couple that with social context that is now deeply impersonal and huge degraded media and content that they revel in (e.g., disgusting porn, extreme racism, whatever) -- it's a pretty toxic mix. No wonder they think the world is on the brink of collapse. I said this before but like 15 minutes on 4chan would make anyone wonder what the point of living is, and how can we burn this all down?

I've even granted that the left, insofar as it has embraced cultural and social libertine attitudes perhaps has made big mistakes. Like, all politics is a circle, so perhaps I'm veering toward my conservative side. Or maybe I've aged into an old fashioned social conservative, but I'm definitely warming to the idea that the dismissing organized religion as regressive and leaving America's sons to raise themselves on xbox and porn perhaps had some downstream knock-on effects we didn't consider; let's get these teens signed up for Little League or Cub Scouts something.

Anyway, ranting aside: These dudes make terrible decisions and are garbagey people, but we can recognize the larger social forces that exacerbate the problem. 2017 America is the mix of your standard fare garbage people coming together during bad times to spread misery and make a bad situation worse, as is the paradox of the human condition from time to time.

Anyway, I think the mix of "yep, these guys are unsexed losers but hey, aren't some of our holistic economic decisions, government policies, collective social rot deepening this mess?" makes me sound like I'm sympathetic with specially these guys instead of curious about how we can not live in a ****ty society.
This explanation is generous, IMO. Small sample size of people I know who lean this direction, but the anecdotal examples I've encountered don't include underachieving, sexually frustrated betas as rule. I'm admittedly nowhere near the epicenter of the movement. The trumpkins/chauvinist bros I know the best were raised as church attending, after school sport-playing popular kids and generally continued to be sexually actively seemingly above their station even after losing their athletic advantage. The resentment often is voiced at the implication that they don't deserve the success they have and that it came easy to them because of privilege. Others (races, women) don't have what it takes and they do. They know deep down that they really have had it easy though, and when that is being threatened they fear they will both lose the spoils and be exposed. And just boilerplate racism, broculture etc.

Before trump politics blew the lid off of my assumptions about their sensibilities I was first clued when they shared things like Dan Blizarian posts and it was admiringly instead of ironic to them--I was surprised when I asked point blank that they said they really want that life. They admire Trump and his lifestyle choices.That's the epitome of success to them, gold, riches, bitches. I suppose if there is room to be empathetic it has been shoved down our throats, via all the mediums you list and more, that it is the good life, the end goal. Now libs, feminazis, sjws are eroding that dream, telling them they are bad for wanting it and should be ashamed.

Fair to say there is room for both genisis theories and more, I know about the proud boys and the like, but those are the example I know.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:18 AM   #173
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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I said before as I'll say now: yes, these are unlovable repulsive idiots, but ldo women and society owe them nothing, they're just losers. But they've teamed up with old whites, the mega rich, other assorted deplorables, etc. so they've got a form of political power now, no doubt. And I guess we have to deal with that.
Yeah its not surprising the PUA, MRA, proud boys types got on the contrain. He is what the aspire to when it comes to women. Both look at them more as objects to be won, counted and shown.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:34 AM   #174
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Who cares about sincerity? If you post exclusively misogyny, there is no reason to take such a person as anything other than a misogynist.
C'mon man, you're unfamiliar with parody? Slater was quite literally mocking MRAs with that post.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:02 AM   #175
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

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The sexual harassment vortex pulls more people in...
C'mon down Mark Halperin, you're the next contestant on What the ****:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/25/medi...ons/index.html

Quote:
Veteran journalist Mark Halperin sexually harassed women while he was in a powerful position at ABC News, according to five women who shared their previously undisclosed accounts with CNN and others who did not experience the alleged harassment personally, but were aware of it.

"During this period, I did pursue relationships with women that I worked with, including some junior to me," Halperin said in a statement to CNN Wednesday night. "I now understand from these accounts that my behavior was inappropriate and caused others pain. For that, I am deeply sorry and I apologize. Under the circumstances, I'm going to take a step back from my day-to-day work while I properly deal with this situation."
Quote:
But women who spoke to CNN say he also had a dark side not made public until now. The stories of harassment shared with CNN range in nature from propositioning employees for sex to kissing and grabbing one's breasts against her will. Three of the women who spoke to CNN described Halperin as, without consent, pressing an erection against their bodies while he was clothed. Halperin denies grabbing a woman's breasts and pressing his genitals against the three women.
Reminder about this ****ing guy:

Quote:
MSNBC senior political analyst Mark Halperin was suspended on Thursday by the cable network after he called President Obama “a dick” on a popular morning show and then quickly apologized.

“I thought he was a kind of a dick yesterday,” Halperin, who also is an editor at large for Time, said on “Morning Joe,” referring to the president’s conduct during his press conference.
Halperin however is probably best known for writing those gossipy tell all books about the campaign and being a vapid idiot. Well, and now being a creep.

Gonna be awkward on the Morning Joe set this AM.

-------------

Related, in another thread, I advised that trying to date at all at work is usually a bad idea. Again, charitably, note why. Taking everyone at their word (not that you should take Halperin at his word): these women are harassed and creeped out. Halperin seems to acknowledge at least the broad outlines of the incidents ("I did some things but disagree with the specifics and interpretations") and apologizes for 'pursuing relationships.'

Note how easily this all goes away if we could universally frown on pursuing relationships at work as a social convention the same way we would frown on someone who openly watched porn on their phone in the lunch room or used ethnic slurs or was rude to clients/customers or something. Then one someone does it, they could lose the benefit of the doubt and everyone would understand why you are jeopardizing your professional career by engaging in the conduct REGARDLESS of your own self estimation of your intent and what happened. Just a bright line you don't cross.

Again, maybe I sound like an uptight robotic capitalist but: go to work to work. Find dates somewhere else.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-26-2017 at 03:19 AM.
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