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Old 10-25-2017, 10:12 AM   #126
jjjou812
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
Sexual harassment is so common that it barely needs research to know how big a problem it is. Recent BBC poll fund 53% / 20% of women/men have been sexually harassed at work. 63% / 79% of female/male victims didn't report it.

For 1 in 10 women it reached the level of a sexual assault.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41741615
While i recognize that no one else on this site bothers to reply to this poster (most have him on their ignore list) and he is not the person i asked to provide her research, since when does a BBC radio live survey qualify as scholarly research on gender socialization?

...
The Radio 5 live survey, of 2,031 British adults, found that 37% of all those asked - 53% of women and 20% of men - said they had experienced sexual harassment, ranging from inappropriate comments to actual sexual assaults, at work or a place of study.
More than a quarter of people surveyed had suffered harassment in the form of inappropriate jokes or "banter" and nearly one in seven had suffered inappropriate touching.
....

This survey exemplifies my premise: 25% incorrectly think that any inappropriate joke qualifies as sexual harassment. If you are going to use the term, understand its actual meaning.

Still waiting, lycopsid.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:09 AM   #127
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

As i said - it 's so common it barely needs research. You don't need deep scholarly analysis to see something that's is so ubiquitous. I linked to that poll for you as it was in today's news.

Sure that 53% includes a wide range of behavior but even if you dismiss stuff you think doesn't count, you have spotted that 1 in 7 of them had experienced inappropriate touching - is that not serious enough for you? 1 in 10 actually being assaulted - not enough for you?

You don't think there's a really big and obvious problem?

Last edited by chezlaw; 10-25-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:22 AM   #128
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

I definitely thought it was a good idea to hit on coworkers when I was 22, at a new career-oriented job, in a new city. I never really did, because I was probably more socially inept than iron, but I totally would have in the right situations. It would not have gone well. It wasn't just that they were attractive and that they were there, there were also a lot of people (parents, relatives, friends, acquaintances), that would tell me it was a good idea. I mean, you already know that you're in similar socio-economic conditions and have similar interests, so it should work out, right?

Now that I'm 30 and in a healthy relationship, I can't imagine trying to hit on a coworker and know it's a straight up terrible idea. I mean, I have no desire whatsoever to see the people I work with outside of work, I have many more interesting people to spend time with. This sentiment will continue to be true even after my relationship ends as well. Which I now realize is how I should have thought about things as a 22 year old.

jjjou -
I'm pretty sure inappropriate jokes qualify as long as they occur with some frequency. Which is kinda the point, this stuff happens all the time.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:37 AM   #129
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Took a while for a bona fide MRA to show up.
False. Slater was in on the ground floor.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:40 AM   #130
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Man vigorously defends mankind, that men are given adequate social training, while admitting to a stunning lack of socialization even at age 22.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:40 AM   #131
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Slater is a very dedicated troll. The **** he posts is so outlandish I refuse to believe its sincere.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:40 PM   #132
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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False. Slater was in on the ground floor.
The voice in which I read your post.



I thought Slater was trolling. His posts seemed like a ****ty imitation of a MRA.

Last edited by SuperUberBob; 10-25-2017 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Geez slow pony by one hour
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:18 PM   #133
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
everybody: we need to radically restructure society to battle patriarchy
dvaut: maybe people should stop ****ing their coworkers?
everybody: whoa whoa whoa let's not get nuts here
Yeah there's that sort of irony. Also this:

Women of society:
men seemingly can't help themselves sexually harassing people, #metoo
me: yeah you know, thinking on it, while I acknowledge it's not quite the same thing and it's a matter of degrees, one thing that might help to stop the endemic culture of workplace sexual harassment is to foster norms so that it is not appropriate to try to engage in any romantic pursuits at all on the job
men of 2p2: we can't help ourselves because chemistry, what are you some kind of robot, have you ever worked closely with a women, these things just happen somehow, it can't be helped

Arguments that make you go hmm. The general feeling seems to be that OF COURSE men must stop workplace sexual harassment but asking guys to stop trying to flirt and score dates on the job, whoa whoa whoa some things about human nature simply cannot be changed, these are just natural impulses people have and cannot be helped or controlled in any way. Or the old "the lack of agency and self control from doing X" is a heinous blight on humanity and must be stopped but "the lack of agency and self control from doing Y is just the natural state of the world, stop lecturing us" even as they acknowledge all the apologists for doing X regularly point to their natural impulses and ask you to back off

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-25-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:37 PM   #134
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Women hit on men in the workplace too. I could of filed with HR...Not that it is a good idea to date coworker.

DVaut1 were you ever in the PUA scene? The way you speak of unwanted males makes me wonder.
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:41 PM   #135
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

iirc Dvault was (is???) bigly into the PUA scene, explains a lot imo

edit: many people are saying dvault is into the PUA scene

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Old 10-25-2017, 01:59 PM   #136
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
Women hit on men in the workplace too. I could of filed with HR...Not that it is a good idea to date coworker.
OK? The norm I think everyone should follow is universal. Work at work. Flirt, find dates and people to **** somewhere else.

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DVaut1 were you ever in the PUA scene? The way you speak of unwanted males makes me wonder.
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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
iirc Dvault was (is???) bigly into the PUA scene, explains a lot imo
lol wat. I've been married almost 14 years now. But you can read their forums, or MRA, or whatever affiliated groups and fellow travelers. It's not like they are unknowable. My typical points about them is that many of them are self aware enough to realize they are unwanted and/or lower social status dudes, hence their anxiety. Their strategies and life theories and whatever else are usually the exact opposite of what people in their position should do, not unlike how I would describe Trump's legions of angry whites as having a mix of understandable frustrations, fantastically needlessly angry/nihilistic frustrations, and terrible political positions originating from them.

That is to say, I find the PUA dudes *usually* somewhere on the undiagnosed Aspie or social anxiety scale, or victims of circumstance (bad parents, unorthodox upbringing -- usually fundamentalist religious types, whatever), or your standard fare *******s and generally repulsive types -- who have just enough self-awareness to realize some fundamental truths about the world, that women are understandably attracted to successful, socially skilled, high status people. That's nothing for women to apologize for. And these dues, they realize they're often on the losing end of life experience and God given talents or whatever, BUT they are fraught with the understandable human desire to fornicate and have affection in their lives. It's an understandable confusion but "yeah you guys ARE losers, that's why no one wants to **** you" is I think both a truism but also some sort of PUA motivational paean or something, I dunno, but causes confusion if you recognize the truism and makes the speaker seem like a fellow traveler. Really, I'm just mean, I think. But I've never been 'bigly' into the PUA scene whatever the **** that means, I've been happily married for most of this millennium and got married when I was 21, and I think this confusion comes up simply because I am more than happy to note that yes, in fact, tons of loser guys are un****able due to the forces of sexual competition and they are functionally useless. "The world is competitive and you lost" is both I think 1) absolutely true for some men whose reproductive capacities will never ever been useful but 2) also some sort of aspirational PUA thing. I recognize the fundamental truth of #1; #2 is their nonsense, I dunno, I'm honestly not clear on it or what it really means for them.

Anyway, my only point from there was that mix of human impulses and emotion (recognizing hyper competitive social hierarchies and not succeeding in them and the way that weighs on the human brain) gets a lot of these PUA dudes into the world of *******s, nihilists, and socially maladjusted clubhouses (e.g., 4chan) where they all eventually degrade and migrate into other affiliated and reactionary related right-winger positions together. It was in the midst of a larger point about how increasingly competitive contexts (like economic ones where the differences between success and failure in the modern economy grows starker, or like the sexual ones described above) can foster all sorts of stresses and consequently reactionary political movements. I had some related points about factors that I suspect are leading to more socially maladapted males: the ubiquity of porn, the ready availability of video games and internets instead of more social activities, perhaps we can even kowtow a little about to the old school conservative point of view about the degradation of the nuclear family and absentee fathers or something.

It was to explain the current zeitgeist and the intersection of Trumpism, racist idiots and many of these dudes are in fact, undeniably huge ****ing dorks. And that's not an accident, that intersection is the way competition and environment and circumstance can turn people or large groups of people and move them into these right wing authoritarian movements we see peak every few decades or so.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-25-2017 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:06 PM   #137
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

I don't even think PUAs are a thing anymore, didn't they all glom onto 4chan or Reddit or some other hangout for angry socially dysfunctional weirdos?
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:07 PM   #138
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by DVaut1 View Post
OK? The norm I think everyone should follow is universal. Work at work. Flirt, find dates and people to **** somewhere else.
As long as its everyone. Though im not just going to go to work to work. Im there for friendships too.

Quote:
lol wat. I've been married almost 14 years now. But you can read their forums, or MRA, or whatever affiliated groups and fellow travelers. My typical points about them is that many of them are self aware enough to realize they are unwanted and/or lower social status dudes, hence their anxiety. Their strategies and life theories and whatever else are usually the exact opposite of what people in their position should do, not unlike how I would describe Trump's legions of angry whites as having a mix of understandable frustrations, fantastically needlessly angry/nihilistic frustrations, and terrible political positions originating from them.

That is to say, I find the PUA dudes *usually* somewhere on the undiagnosed Aspie or social anxiety scale, or victims of circumstance (bad parents, unorthodox upbringing -- usually fundamentalist religious types, whatever), or your standard fare *******s and generally repulsive types -- who have just enough self-awareness to realize some fundamental truths about the world, that women are understandably attracted to successful, socially skilled, high status people since. And they realize they're often on the losing end of life experience and God given talents or whatever, BUT they are fraught with the understandable human desire to fornicate and have affection in their lives. It's an understandable confusion but "yeah you guys ARE losers, that's why no one wants to **** you" is I think both a truism but also some sort of PUA motivational paean or something, I dunno, but causes confusion if you recognize the truism and makes the speaker seem like a fellow traveler. Really, I'm just mean, I think. But I've never been 'bigly' into the PUA scene whatever the **** that means, I've been happily married for most of this millennium and got married when I was 21, and I think this confusion comes up simply because I am more than happy to note that yes, in fact, tons of loser guys are un****able due to the forces of sexual competition and they are functionally useless.

Anyway, my only point from there was that mix of human impulses and emotion (recognizing hyper competitive social hierarchies and not succeeding in them and the way that weighs on the human brain) gets a lot of these PUTA dudes into the world of *******s, nihilists, and socially maladjusted clubhouses (e.g., 4chan) where they all eventually degrade and migrate into other affiliated and reactionary related right-winger positions.
Sorry i just get the vibe form you.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:11 PM   #139
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
I don't even think PUAs are a thing anymore, didn't they all glom onto 4chan or Reddit or some other hangout for angry socially dysfunctional weirdos?
The alt right
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:16 PM   #140
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
I don't even think PUAs are a thing anymore, didn't they all glom onto 4chan or Reddit or some other hangout for angry socially dysfunctional weirdos?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
The alt right
Just because I edited my post AND if there's anything I am bigly into besides PUA, it's repeating myself.

You guys are correct that that the cast of characters and points of view which were incredibly common in MRA, PUA, various fundamentalist religious types with big misogyntic components, etc. have all coalesced and descended into more reactionary right wing positions together:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1 View Post
Anyway, my only point from there was that mix of human impulses and emotion (recognizing hyper competitive social hierarchies and not succeeding in them and the way that weighs on the human brain) gets a lot of these PUA dudes into the world of *******s, nihilists, and socially maladjusted clubhouses (e.g., 4chan) where they all eventually degrade and migrate into other affiliated and reactionary related right-winger positions together. It was in the midst of a larger point about how increasingly competitive contexts (like economic ones where the differences between success and failure in the modern economy grows starker, or like the sexual ones described above) can foster all sorts of stresses and consequently reactionary political movements. I had some related points about factors that I suspect are leading to more socially maladapted males: the ubiquity of porn, the ready availability of video games and internets instead of more social activities, perhaps we can even kowtow a little about to the old school conservative point of view about the degradation of the nuclear family and absentee fathers or something.

It was to explain the current zeitgeist and the intersection of Trumpism, racist idiots and many of these dudes are in fact, undeniably huge ****ing dorks. And that's not an accident, that intersection is the way competition and environment and circumstance can turn people or large groups of people and move them into these right wing authoritarian movements we see peak every few decades or so.
There's a decent, recently published book about this -- Kill All Normies

https://www.amazon.com/Kill-All-Norm...ll+all+normies

The author makes the same sort of observation how lots of these seemingly 'unrelated' communities and subcultures full of socially isolated and aggrieved dudes have all lined up behind Trump and the alt-right movement even if they were superficially apolitical before. The point was that in the midst of this social isolation and embrace of transgressions were the some of the roots of Trumpism. All I've sorted of layered in over the years on this forum is that men socially isolating themselves, embracing transgressions, and otherwise falling out of mainstream masculine life patterns (namely productive work + ****ing + raising a family) were known to be risks to society at many points in the past (see how much the FDR administration privately fretted about men out of work agitating each other). But also other points in history. Often times we see the collective social acknowledgement of this risk of surplus, useless men manifest as drafting these kinds of guys for duty on the front lines of military service or public service projects (e.g., go out into the wildnerness and build a wall or a pyramid or a monument, or settle the frontier; either way, get the **** out of here and stop bothering us). But we've yet to find a solution in modern society with what to do with these dudes.

Anyway, this is all sort of rambling. I've presented the case a few times now. Phone Booth likes it, Dr Modern doesn't IIRC.

Last edited by DVaut1; 10-25-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:21 PM   #141
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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I thought Slater was trolling. His posts seemed like a ****ty imitation of a MRA.
Na, he just takes the "ostensibly I'm trolling" line because he thinks it leaves him some plausible deniability wiggle room.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:21 PM   #142
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by DVaut1 View Post
OK? The norm I think everyone should follow is universal. Work at work. Flirt, find dates and people to **** somewhere else.





lol wat. I've been married almost 14 years now. But you can read their forums, or MRA, or whatever affiliated groups and fellow travelers. It's not like they are unknowable. My typical points about them is that many of them are self aware enough to realize they are unwanted and/or lower social status dudes, hence their anxiety. Their strategies and life theories and whatever else are usually the exact opposite of what people in their position should do, not unlike how I would describe Trump's legions of angry whites as having a mix of understandable frustrations, fantastically needlessly angry/nihilistic frustrations, and terrible political positions originating from them.

That is to say, I find the PUA dudes *usually* somewhere on the undiagnosed Aspie or social anxiety scale, or victims of circumstance (bad parents, unorthodox upbringing -- usually fundamentalist religious types, whatever), or your standard fare *******s and generally repulsive types -- who have just enough self-awareness to realize some fundamental truths about the world, that women are understandably attracted to successful, socially skilled, high status people. That's nothing for women to apologize for. And these dues, they realize they're often on the losing end of life experience and God given talents or whatever, BUT they are fraught with the understandable human desire to fornicate and have affection in their lives. It's an understandable confusion but "yeah you guys ARE losers, that's why no one wants to **** you" is I think both a truism but also some sort of PUA motivational paean or something, I dunno, but causes confusion if you recognize the truism and makes the speaker seem like a fellow traveler. Really, I'm just mean, I think. But I've never been 'bigly' into the PUA scene whatever the **** that means, I've been happily married for most of this millennium and got married when I was 21, and I think this confusion comes up simply because I am more than happy to note that yes, in fact, tons of loser guys are un****able due to the forces of sexual competition and they are functionally useless. "The world is competitive and you lost" is both I think 1) absolutely true for some men whose reproductive capacities will never ever been useful but 2) also some sort of aspirational PUA thing. I recognize the fundamental truth of #1; #2 is their nonsense, I dunno, I'm honestly not clear on it or what it really means for them.

Anyway, my only point from there was that mix of human impulses and emotion (recognizing hyper competitive social hierarchies and not succeeding in them and the way that weighs on the human brain) gets a lot of these PUA dudes into the world of *******s, nihilists, and socially maladjusted clubhouses (e.g., 4chan) where they all eventually degrade and migrate into other affiliated and reactionary related right-winger positions together. It was in the midst of a larger point about how increasingly competitive contexts (like economic ones where the differences between success and failure in the modern economy grows starker, or like the sexual ones described above) can foster all sorts of stresses and consequently reactionary political movements. I had some related points about factors that I suspect are leading to more socially maladapted males: the ubiquity of porn, the ready availability of video games and internets instead of more social activities, perhaps we can even kowtow a little about to the old school conservative point of view about the degradation of the nuclear family and absentee fathers or something.

It was to explain the current zeitgeist and the intersection of Trumpism, racist idiots and many of these dudes are in fact, undeniably huge ****ing dorks. And that's not an accident, that intersection is the way competition and environment and circumstance can turn people or large groups of people and move them into these right wing authoritarian movements we see peak every few decades or so.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:22 PM   #143
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Maybe they're all so busy picking up hot girls that they don't have time for being angry *******s on the internet.
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Old 10-25-2017, 05:40 PM   #144
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by DVaut1 View Post
Yeah there's that sort of irony. Also this:

Women of society:
men seemingly can't help themselves sexually harassing people, #metoo
me: yeah you know, thinking on it, while I acknowledge it's not quite the same thing and it's a matter of degrees, one thing that might help to stop the endemic culture of workplace sexual harassment is to foster norms so that it is not appropriate to try to engage in any romantic pursuits at all on the job
men of 2p2: we can't help ourselves because chemistry, what are you some kind of robot, have you ever worked closely with a women, these things just happen somehow, it can't be helped

Arguments that make you go hmm. The general feeling seems to be that OF COURSE men must stop workplace sexual harassment but asking guys to stop trying to flirt and score dates on the job, whoa whoa whoa some things about human nature simply cannot be changed, these are just natural impulses people have and cannot be helped or controlled in any way. Or the old "the lack of agency and self control from doing X" is a heinous blight on humanity and must be stopped but "the lack of agency and self control from doing Y is just the natural state of the world, stop lecturing us" even as they acknowledge all the apologists for doing X regularly point to their natural impulses and ask you to back off
Or maybe harassment is wrong but dating is not.
Maybe being in a relationship is a sign that someone does not lack self-control.
Maybe some people choose to live their life and still be respectful to all people.
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Old 10-25-2017, 06:26 PM   #145
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

Dvaut, what differences do you see between "coworkers flirting" vs "fellow college students" flirting?
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Old 10-25-2017, 06:55 PM   #146
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by Benjam!n View Post
Or maybe harassment is wrong but dating is not.
[...]
Of course buddy. Work is one of the most important places where people meet friends and romantic partners. What needs to change is how socially accepted sexual harassment is, nothing is going to have a stronger effect.
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:55 PM   #147
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Dvaut, what differences do you see between "coworkers flirting" vs "fellow college students" flirting?
Furthermore, what about college students who are...employed by the university!?
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:59 PM   #148
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Re: I'm Not Trying to Suck My Own Coctober LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

The sexual harassment vortex pulls more people in...

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Old 10-25-2017, 08:08 PM   #149
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Originally Posted by aflametotheground View Post
Of course buddy. Work is one of the most important places where people meet friends and romantic partners. What needs to change is how socially accepted sexual harassment is, nothing is going to have a stronger effect.
and the power imbalance. And poor worker rights.

Much of the sexual harassment/abuse is coming from men in positions of authority. The successful, high status, married men can be the most dangerous. Just look at the high profile cases - these aren't remotely like unsuccessful men struggling to find a sexual partner.
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:36 PM   #150
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Re: Is there a sexual harassment conversation to be had?

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Slater is a very dedicated troll. The **** he posts is so outlandish I refuse to believe its sincere.
guy who gets it
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