There were upwards of 20 victims all claiming roughly the same thing. There is no contrition in his essay, instead he complains about no longer being famous, which is probably good because while he was famous he didn't treat women very well, although not as poorly as his accusers said.

I agree - it was just unfortunate that the widely publicized trial gave him credibility because of (mainly) her actions

What kind of publication is the New York Book Review? It’s name seems is misleading if it is publishing sexual harasser essays from Canadian djs.

The editor was an old white guy though.

I missed it. Where's all the faux outrage over 17 year olds having sex? Or do you mean 17 year old GIRLS having sex because that probably does outrage many conservative knuckle draggers. Also, what's this got to do with the metoo movement?

what? asia argento has been crucified because she had sex with a 17y old boy.

It was metoo doing the crucifixion, and she was one of the leader of the movement.

And if she hadn't been criticized by metoo, you'd be in here complaining about how hypocritical they were.

Only if they hadn't admit their mistake.

They could have said "look, 17y old can be consensual even with much older people in position of higher relative power, if we gave the impression in the past that they couldn't , we were wrong".

They could have focused on the fact being technically a crime in the place where it happened , while admitting that by itself the fact isn't necessarily morally heinous.

They could have, basically, step down from absolutism toward a resonable approach to that topic.

In that case not only i wouldn't have criticized them , i would have plauded them.

I doubt it. Horrid political beliefs are much more disheartening than imperfect logic.

Apologies. That bit of news never made its way into my cave. But it kind of goes to what really irks me about POTUS and others asking why she didn't come out 35 years ago. What does that matter? I think it's totally reasonable she decided to bury the incident and live with it until finding out her assaulter was about to be confirmed for the SCOTUS. I don't see why it matters what causes someone to come out or when they do. It appears Argento's accuser waited as well

They don't care why they didn't come out earlier, or they would have stopped asking this same question years ago when it was clear coming forward means persecution and indifference. Next time you talk to a DA you should ask them what percentage of rape cases they prosecute.

Not sure if this the right thread, but has there ever been a more craven organization than USA gymnastics. Former President of the organization just got arrested for tampering with evidence.

The whole sport of women’s gymnastics seems like a magnet for the skeeviest people.

Realizing the fact that something like the above, for example, can slip by me (us) is where I want this to go. I frankly do not notice when things like the above happen in real time, and that is exactly what I think deserves scrutiny. I know for a fact I have made plenty of comments/jokes like the ones that got called out, and worse, and likely even in posts on this site. As I mentioned before I believe men are victims of this dynamic also, not in that we are victimized by it to near the same degree, but in that our entire lives are within it. We are all going to **** up plenty, and that's not the point. The part I want to get to is how can we discuss this **** honestly among ourselves and without a ton of affect so that we don't have to wait for one of the few females around here to object in order for it to be worthy of discussion? And I am NOT talking about oh, let's call out every infraction. I am not going to do that and not interested in it. The only reason I posted the above example is that you asked for one and it was recent and easy to identify, not to make it a big thing out of it. I am sure there are plenty of other examples that we all could find if we want. Like, Rep used the word ***** in a post. Well, know what? In the heat of the debate here I found myself wanting to use the same term about the people complaining about the derails, and if not that some other emasculating term, and aside from that, feeling sensitive about how emasculating it is to go to bat on the side of feminism and alllll the connotations that go along with it. That is the meat I want to get to...not policing behavior, asking ourselves what we want to do and who we want to really be. This is the most liberal place I visit online, and if WE can't do it who the **** can? The first question we should ask ourselves is why we are compelled to pick up the same weapons and wield them in similar ways that the right does?
Man, I guess. You have zero idea what CN's personal history is, and really you could make the same argument for HER reaction. That is aside from the fact that bolded is a hell of a lot of poetic license on her statements. Anyway, again the part that interests me most in all this is what the **** can men in the most liberal place that I personally have found, figure out amongst ourselves about our own participation in systemic sexism? How much do we want to? It is something I think about a lot and I want to talk about it with other men who are smart and give a **** and want to improve their roles. Of course, I want input from women too, but how we act is primarily a men's issue.

I'm going to cross post this in the sexism thread so if we want to continue it, and I hope we do, it won't make the...ummm.......complainers any....um.....complainier.

Not particularly surprising. The top athletes are all very young and willing to do practically anything to succeed. The combination makes them easy to manipulate and unlikely to speak out.

You "could" make the argument, would you like to make it? I mean, either you believe that all offensive statements are created equal or you agree that there are varying degrees of wrongness that transcend sexist, racist, whatever lines. Being against affirmative action is not as bad as thinking slavery is acceptable. Saying jews are good with money is not as bad as saying women who wear short skirts deserve to get raped. Calling a powerful, horrible woman a relatively common yet vulgar word is not as bad as denying the existence of one of the biggest genocides in human history. It's not that hard.

It wasn't supposed to be a straight analogy, just an example to show that it's understandable to react in a less than perfect way to charged statements. Having said that, she directly compared going to the mailbox to BEING IN THE MIDDLE OF A MASS SHOOTING. It's difficult for me personally to respond a comment like that in a manner that wouldn't be rude in some way.

As for the rest of your post, I completely agree that all of us say and do sexist things often without even realizing it. I don't really know how to address this aside from trying to be more aware and calling it out as it happens, but I welcome any discussion on how to progress and improve as a group. The language that we use is certainly an important start.

Slightly off topic, and I hope it's not insensitive to conflate sexism and racism, but this article from today touches on a lot of the themes that you are alluding to.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en...-utah-jazz-nba

Well, I am really not as interested in relitigating her argument as I am in getting to the second part, but I will say that I interpreted her statements in a more charitable way, I am assuming closer to the way they were intended, and you seem to be interpreting them in the least charitable way possible. Like you can't really believe that you think she posited that walking to the mailbox is exactly the same as being in the middle of a school shooting? Her point, the way I read it, was that she has a real-life concern with this issue that comes up in her day to day consciousness in situations as often as walking in the dark. It was illustrating the relevance.

If a woman was raped, and reported it, and was dragged through the mud and had her sexual history trotted out and called a whore and worse for it, wouldn't it be fair to say that she could be affected by women casually being called whore online MORE than I would by some POS questioning the holocaust? And again, why the **** would we even put that up as a litmus test to begin with?

And further, I really should be more concerned with my daughter getting raped at school than her being caught in a school shooting, statistically. That's just a fact. The extrapolation of that is NOT that sandy hook truthers are no big deal.

Anyway, whatever man. Maybe I am wrong and she really is downplaying the Holocaust and school shootings comparing them to the least destructive elements of sexism, or maybe the reverse is true. They are not even arguing about it anymore so I sure am not interested.

The language we use is a place to start for sure, but I am interested in framing also, not just behavior. Some of this is just being more aware. It is super ****ing ingrained in me, and we should talk about it openly, not just when we need to correct things that we do. Like for example: It is really crazy how much gender roles are just thrust on little babies. My kids were very clear on boy and girl toys waaaaaay too young and I don't even know how. I have been actively trying to balance that by communicating to my daughter that women can do anything men can do and anything they want. It is ****ing strange just how much that needs to happen. Anyway, in that vein, I was showing her some AOC tweets the other day, and explaining how AOC put her mind to making a change in the world with the NGD and she is doing it. Then I told her she could be like AOC too. Her response? "So can brother!"

So here I am trying to combat this **** and I didn't even realize I am STILL perpetuating an idea that AOC should be a hero to my little girl and didn't consider my little boy. Like, WTF?

Has it occurred to you that you might be overthinking it?

Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler.

There is the unfortunate physics correlation between success and a body type that few woman have.

So no?

Yes. I consider that all the time. The thing is there are plenty of people under-thinking it to offset my effort, and I’m not just being snide. Go ahead and stop thinking about it if you are sure you have it figured out and can’t possibly do better than you do. I’m not there.