There was no power imbalance here. He was not her boss nor did he hold any power over her. The only reason power was imbalanced was because she fell victim to the cultural idea that women don't take charge in a sexual encounter but rather act submissive to the man.

Men must stop agressive sexual behaviour but women must stop defaulting to a submissive role and rather claim agency.

Let me clarify. I said that he thought he was kind of a big deal, but it sounds like they both thought he was kind of a big deal.

I think you are wrong about the cultural idea. I think they both thought of her as "nobody famous" and he translated that as "nobody important".

Does anyone in this thread thinking that he "just misinterpreted her signals" think that he would have acted the same way if he was dating someone that was a bigger celebrity than he is?

I get this definitely, but I disagree with the premise that in this instance, Ansari turned out to be an "awful person". He was not much of a gentleman, clearly. But asking for (and receiving) oral sex does not make you an awful person. Even after she said she didn't want to rush into intercourse, by all accounts - although honestly it's hard to tell due to the confusing way the article is written - they were both still undressed and they were still making out and doing other stuff. So he may have thought (or she may even have said, we don't know), that she was OK with oral sex, but not comfortable with having intercourse on a first date. I realize I may be giving Ansari too much credit here. But we likely will never hear his honest version of events.


You could be right, but it seems less that he was famous, than the fact that he didn't live up to her idealized version of him... which she had probably based on his nice-guy pro-feminist persona... so in that sense his fame probably played a part. She thought she knew him, but she only knew the character he plays on TV.

LOL. Just to be clear, I am assuming that most of the actual EVENTS are honestly portrayed, and trying to differentiate from interpretation.

I definitely don't think giving or asking for oral sex makes someone an awful person. In my less judicious days I've even posted about it.

She ignored his verbal and non-verbal cues that he only wanted to ****, because she hoped to experience this persona. He ignored her verbal and non-verbal cues because she stuck around, in spite of the fact that he repeatedly indicated he wanted to ****. I'm going 50-50 on the blame here for how the evening went. But you can certainly consider what he wanted more distasteful than what she wanted, and you can certainly call him a hypocrite considering his public persona. But she doesn't get to call it sexual assault when she gets her feelings hurt because he turned out to be a boorish ******* instead of that persona.

The bit that tests my patience with this is the bit where she has 5 minutes in the bathroom, splashing water on her face and calming herself down, then walks out and near-immediately starts sucking his dick again. I don't buy that she was worried about him getting violent, by the way, largely because in the article, Grace never expresses any concern about that. Anyway, as I've posted before, this is ultimately on Ansari for not getting affirmative consent once her signals became mixed.

But her behaviour is a separate problem, really. And by problem, I mean a problem for her. Ansari could be the world's most vicious rapist and serial killer and it wouldn't change the fact that if you have such a total inability to figure out what you want to do and then stick to it, you're going to have a bad time in life. Not just in sex.

Again, I'm not articulating this very well. I don't think she felt physically threatened. I do think she probably felt stunned and very disappointed, and kept telling herself that he was a good guy. Sometimes people question their own judgment in these situations. At least I do.

I agree that neither of them look very good here. I stand by my opinion that whether real or not, there was a perceived imbalance and he tried to take advantage of it.

This would be fine except she gave verbal cues "next time" "don't want to be forced" and he gave verbal cues "yeah it's not fun unless we are both having fun" "let's keep our clothes on" that indicated they both were going to stop. Then he didn't.

"When they walked back in, she complimented his marble countertops. According to Grace, Ansari turned the compliment into an invitation.

“He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated."

Eating her pussy on your kitchen counter within moments of walking into the apartment is a porn scene, not real life.

Um, no? I mean, not eating pussy on a marble kitchen bench specifically, but having sexual activity start within moments of getting back to someone's apartment is commonplace.

What are you blaming the woman for exactly?

As much as it may seem to be--and maybe is--victim blaming, this woman clearly could have taken steps that would have changed her evening. I don't dispute that, nor do I think anyone else here does.

According to the piece, however, she made multiple attempts to de-escalate the sexual situation and demonstrate that she was uncomfortable with his behavior and he ignored her other than to strategize how to achieve her consent. That's not rape, its not assault, but it shows a clear lack of empathy in an area of life where empathy should be paramount. That she could have been more adamant doesn't change that.

On a separate note, I can understand why some--particularly older--women are critical of her story and its inclusion in the current movement. They've gone through decades of Ansari's behavior being to some degree the norm and incredibly far from the worst. They don't want to risk what progress they feel has been made against the Weinsteins of the world to fight against what the public may find to be marginal cases of misbehavior. I think this speaks to a generation gap and a wonderful thing: if to 23 year old women the Ansari behavior is not only unacceptable but deserving of some degree of public ridicule even more progress has been made.

The amount of mind reading and moral absolutism going on in this thread is staggering.

These are hardly face value beliefs you are under. Why must that move be his signature? Where are these other women confirming his pattern of behavior?

No one pairs oysters with red wine, even if you are a 22 year old female.

If she had posted the exact same facts, revealed her identity and said this happened with a unnamed celebrity, would not the same conversations about the behavior occur? Why, at face value, do you think she did not reveal her story in this manner?

She is both- she is a cowardly attention whore who embarrassed a guy for wanting more than just oral sex on a first date.


For some reason you are obsessed with his need for a rebuttal, even though it is a no win situation for him and he wisely made a minimalistic response.

At face value, your need for a rebuttal as clearly displayed in your beta male fantasy response. It has got to be that sensitive nature, not only queers juries, but consistently leaves you in the friend zone because women do not think you are manly enough for sex. There must be a pattern here that other women had to experience with you.

Maybe showing your sensitive side in this forum will get you play with the three women posting but your routine of "morally superior sensitive preacher guy" wears thin.

Wait I said other women would come forward? No. I didn't. If he denied that any of it happened they might.

Most hosts ask their guests what they would like to drink. It's a simple point. I can't recall ever not being asked at someone's house and I can't recall ever not asking. That said, it was a minor point on its own to everyone except those who want to attack her "ZOMG! She should be happy to get wine ungrateful *****!" style.
Because it wouldn't have the same impact at all. Clearly.
What attention is she getting? Why would that be embarrassing if that is the whole story?

I was conversing about rebuttal with another poster who brought up how Aziz would not be able to defend himself. Not you. You are too dumb to do much with except volley insults back and forth. Maybe the other MRAs will be impressed with your slaying of the beta and you'll win the golden fedora certificate.

Lol, you dont like it when a dumb guy mimics your own conduct?

Tend to agree and the other issue with her description of what happened after she came out of the bathroom, is that it is so vague and subjective that is is impossible to get a clear idea of the actual sequence of events. Which makes it less reliable/believable.

According to her she said she didn't want to feel forced. Forced to do what? She had already consensually given and received oral sex and (I think?) let him finger her among other things. So I'd assume she meant forced to have intercourse. They were still naked (I think?) when they went to "chill on the couch", because later she mentions getting dressed. Once at the couch, she sits on the floor and thought he would just "play with her hair to calm her down" (OK, guys admittedly suck at mind reading, but good luck with that one).

Then according to her, almost immediately, he unceremoniously says, "turn around", points at his dick, and tells her to give him a blow job. Which she does. Reluctantly. Then they make out some more and he says "looks like you don't hate me".

The whole thing doesn't pass the BS detector, I'm sorry. Many of the facts are obviously true but there's a lot that is clearly being omitted. Since Ansari has zero to gain by stating what those things are, he will simply stick by his short statement of concern, and wait for it all to go away.

Naivete in not seeing how she was putting herself out there to be taken advantage of. Stubbornness in thinking she could still get the boyfriend experience from this high net worth celebrity after clear indications to the contrary. Failing to leave after being shown that he would not stop trying to convince her to **** in spite of her wishes.

The thing about that is Ansari had all sorts of opportunities to recognize that--shocker!-- this 22 year old woman is a little bit immature.

Ansari's actions speak pretty clearly that he wanted to leverage her immaturity into him getting intercourse despite her desire to not have intercourse.

I recognize that 22 year olds are adults and its not inherently wrong for a 32 year old man to date a 22 year old, but I think there is a dynamic to that which has been largely ignored, wich IMO reflects poorly on Ansari. The woman being a bit immature is all the more reason for the man to be empathetic when it comes to pushing sexual boundaries.

Equating "putting yourself out there to be taken advantage of" with taking advantage of someone is straight up deplorable. Particularly when the person who's being taken advantage of is at an age where a bit of immaturity is entirely the norm.

FWIW I don't mean to insult the woman by saying she's immature. She was 22 and her immaturity within this incidence pretty much only served to expose abhorrent behavior of someone else.

As expected metoo movement has come too far too fast and now that mob justice can’t knee jerk the bill Cosby reaction on borderline cases like Franco and Aziz it’s falling apart under its own weight.

Just ridiculous that mediocre women use their sexuality to get access to famous men then zomg he wanted to put it in me. It’s mixing in these situations to outright sexual assault that will water down the movement if that hasn’t already occurred, the most militant metoo’s will be the last to know as they all seem blind to both reasonable men and women already distancing themselves

There are always going to be borderline cases in all things and there are always going to be people that push harder then others in all movements at those cases. To say it waters down a movement, how? Are you going to turn your head to the Cosby's of the world now?

Why is debate on the borderline cases bad? Seems like it helps to set and learn boundaries and teach both sexes to interact better if anything.


Wonder why the white supremacists dont taint the trump movement for his supporters. If we could figure that out...

Reminder. Sexists will criticise feminist movements whatever they do and no matter what happens.

I'm on record itt saying the Aziz case has blame on both sides and nobody broke the law. Talk of assault is idiotic. That being said, his case has raised the best debate simply because it is so common. It opens questions that we all deal with. How is consent negotiated.

Aziz hasn't suffered anything more than a little embarrassment. I havnt seen anyone calling for his arrest or the cancellation of his show.

Reasonable people can differentiate Aziz from Cosby.

Nothing wrong with debate but recently the metoo movement hasn’t been debating, they’ve been convicting in the court of public opinion and with real consequences. For ex Scarlett Johansson just asked Franco for her metoo pin back in a speech at the women’s march which got pasted all over the news, this won’t have no effect on his career. Ashley Judd even gave Franco a pass, I think she realized how quickly the movement could become ridiculous.

As for Aziz, my problem with this mob is no due process and I’m not so sure Aziz will only suffer embarrassment. His audience trends millennial who seem the most upset about this stuff, not sure how this won’t affect him.

Convicted in the court of public opinion.

Punishment... the public has a negative opinion...