People are so completely rubbish at statistics that they serve no useful political purpose in the popular domain. I can't stop people misusing the poll data but if they think such data isn't strong evidence that there's a very large problem then they are wrong.

(Dvaut's posts are as always excellent. Would be better without the flybie nonsense that infects them at times but those bits can usually be fairly easily filtered out).

You solve it by paying women lots of money for reporting it to a jury.

idk what you think "orthogonal" means, but it seems pretty obvious that once you normalize harmless workplace flirting you open the door to more persistent, aggressive advances and even harassment. That's one thing when it's a bar or tinder or whatever and the girl can tell the guy to buzz off, it's another thing she the two are supposed to work amicably together. To say nothing of the power/status dynamics that are a part of the office place.

There are just so many commonsense reasons why it's a bad idea to date your co-workers, idk why Dvaut is getting this much pushback.

No, we should actually just ban anger. That would take care of like 90% of murders. Who cares what the cost is, or whether it could ever work.

'Dating' here is being used to describe both dating and all behaviours conceivably precedent to actual dating.

I'm actually not willing to condemn all workplace socialising. Not sure what I said that could have possibly been interpreted in that way. Workplace socialising is fine, it's workplace dating that is potentially problematic.

Your hierarchical parity rule is a step in the right direction, but it seems to miss a lot of the patriachy-related power dynamics that exist even between people on the same rungs of the ladder (or noncommensurable rungs of different ladder).

Interestingly, I don't really have a strong opinion about this. With all the sexual assault survivor stories coming out, I've been really struck by how women are being victimized by the ambiguous appropriateness of different kinds of sexual advance, and I think it's worth thinking about how we should change our views of what's acceptable and not in the work environment to combat sexual assault and harassment.

Maids and housekeepers get sexually harassed at a very high rate.

Yeah yeah, 'socialising' incorporates more than just going to the pub. I would bet it represents a healthy majority of workplace socialising, though.

But again, there is nothing about this that is unique to the workplace. You're just taking away all the workplace-specific issues about power dynamics, and noting that a problem remains. Which, like, I agree, but then why are we still talking solely about the workplace? Why are we mooting these highly restrictive social taboos which, even if enforceable and effective, will punish a huge amount of normal (and enjoyable!) behaviour in order to prevent bad outcomes in just this one walk of life?

I guess Ireland also has bands of wolves that adopt human children.

Eh, it's well-intentioned but there are obviously a lot of problems with this.

Good idea.

Because the harassment is more harmful when it takes place in the workplace.

If you're going to tell me that 20% of men have been sexually harassed at work I'm going to seriously question your data.

The question of whether a problem exists and whether the poll you linked is utter crap are not much related.

You think? What dating avenues were previously open that are shrinking? Church functions is the only one I can think of. But the internet has added tons of group meet up options where you can easily find people with similar interests, on top of apps where I can open my phone and literally see every person in the metro area who is looking for a relationship. The universe of dating has expanded dramatically, with seemingly positive effects on diversity of relationships and long term compatibility.

This is some superpredator bull****.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing, in your view? Do you think that workplaces where going out and drinking is the main way form of social participation are, on average, more or less friendly to women than workplaces where that's not the norm? (Who's taking care of the kids while "the guys" are down at the pub til 8 every Thursday, forging social connections?)

No, this is a misunderstanding of what I wrote. Taking away formal hierarchy by no means takes away all the workplace-specific gender imbalances. There are many patriarchy things that aren't expressed as formal hierarchy but that are still workplace-specific or have especially strong relevance in the workplace.

Because preventing sexual assault and harassment is an important and worthwhile goal, even if there's no single magic bullet that solves all problems everywhere?

I'd bet relationships that started at work would be less likely to end in divorce than those that started elsewhere. I wouldn't bet a lot on it, but I'd bet on it.

Honestly, if people were told they couldn't flirt at work, they would all revolt against being kept in work settings for 12 hours a day and would insist on a healthy work-life balance. We could achieve Keynes' vision of the Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren and do away with a lot of the lifestyle burdens that keep working mothers back, in addition to reducing sexual harassment and assault at work. You won't be able to **** in the office shower though, so maybe not a great idea.

The **** are you talking about?

The ones that require people to find a babysitter. Being a single parent tends to consume 100% of one's free time.

According to this the only reason the capitalist machine is able to oppress us is that we're too distracted being horny at the office.

At work tonight im probably going to flirt back with a women who likes to flirt. She is kind of sort of one of my bosses. Should i report her to HR or tell her we have to stop the friendly banter.

While like, church groups and Kiwanis and other community clubs that were a way to meet your neighbors and stuff are declining, Tinder exists.

I guess I'm gonna have to get over my irrational dislike of online dating.

IME "the guys" are generally a roughly even mix of male and female, and people whose partners are homemakers are far less likely to be involved, or if they are, they have their involvement scheduled - once per month etc. Weird that you picture it as this like bunch of '50s-style guys in vests rolling home steamed to the sobbing, neglected wifey, tbh.

OK, name five. Because I bet you the number you can successfully defend as workplace-specific or especially workplace-relevant is very small, if not zero.

LOL are you sure you picked the right end of this discussion for the raised-by-wolves bit? Like, are you really sure?

If you broadly define harassment then 20% wouldn't shock me at all. There are plenty of women who are capable of being inappropriately forward in professional settings.

Well, right, if you count a bunch of ridiculous things in the harassment bucket then you will get high numbers. That's kind of my point.

I'm not talking about the general nuisance of having to deal with the legal system but the specific difficulties encountered by victims of rape, sexual assault, and sexual abuse--many of whom are deeply traumatized--that have lead in extreme cases to victims commiting suicide after unsuccessful attempts to confront perpetrators (TW obviously). It's not enough to handwave that they need to stand up for themselves and all others who are wronged, noble though that may sound. We need to restructure the law's system of evidence, penalties, and reporting in a way that makes sense given the nature of sexual crimes.

Yeah, that was my point, of course. I could see a case for a constitutional amendment relaxing the confrontation clause for sexual offenses.

Well, yes, as microbet (I think) pointed out way upthread, a lot of the issues of power imbalance could be corrected through socialist wealth redistribution measures. But my point here was actually that the financial penalties for creating a hostile work environment should be increased, possibly by a very large amount.

Report her and yourself to HR, then go home and say 10 Hail Marys.