Yea this kind of thing is incredibly standard. I'm sure every girl I know has been in this situation at least once, and the guys who do it get away with it 100% of the time. The reward mechanism is completely ****ed up because people like Johnny Truant who treat women well and respect their uncertainty presumably get laid a lot less than the hyper-aggressive ones that ignore every social cue. ChrisV is right, just like men have the obligation to not do this, women also have the responsibility to JUST SAY NO when someone is crossing the line. This is literally what empowering women is all about. It's also such a perfect example because Aziz was very very unlikely to actually rape or get physically violent with her if she resisted and tried to leave.

Let me pull the needle off the record right there. I have always had the opinion, and recently with the way things are going I feel validated, that you should never poop where you eat. Unless you are not interested in your job going well I would advise that workplace romances have pretty much gone the way of the dodo, and even before the were becoming taboo are just a terrible idea. Maybe 1% of said romances don't end in a train wreck, people need to be smarter and find some leads for tail in a bar or tinder etc.

She doesn't have the "responsibility" to do it, it would just be a good idea.

It goes further though because the positive incentive for Aziz's behavior, getting laid, vs the negative incentive previously, an upset women who he didn't have to care about her feelings beyond a perhaps sincere apology over text, is now being rebalanced.

Mitigating risk is a fine thing to do, but it is still not a shared responsibility to stop aggressive behavior immediately when asked. Mixed signals or unclear signals should mean stop and/or clarify. Nothing else. If excuses are made because there really are times when mixed signals are sent so, like, how do you know??? Well just ****ing stop. If you don't care enough that you may be putting a woman in a situation that is not consensual than maybe you will care because you will get outted as a creep and pay a public price.

Again, if mixed signals are sometimes sent by design but they are as a rule taken to mean stop or clarify, that behavior by the women who do it will also stop being rewarded. If Aziz is a victim of a fickle woman as some are implying than HE should learn to protect himself by changing his behavior to mitigate risk the same way people are advocating she should have.

I still think this gets it slightly wrong. Men shouldn't control themselves out of some Stoic self control or monastic denial of their caveman urges, but instead the obligation of men is to care about how their treatment of people affects them, because they have even the slightest bit of care for the women they're trying to ****. The obligation for men isn't to not be creeps, although not being a creep > being a creep. I think the argument, crudely, is that a much better look for Aziz is to slow the **** down, enjoy their date at dinner, talk to the woman, verify she's actually only present to be ****ed and be his sex object for the night (I don't deny this might absolutely describe some women and what they might want). Once he determines more certainly how she feels, because he cares how she feels, then he can proceed or cool it. Maybe he went through this process and thought he had the go-ahead; more likely he didn't care.

In any event, once we define what men should be doing better, we can clarify from there that women don't need to be hectoring school marms telling aggressive men who cross the line 'no' and it's not their responsibility. Instead the idea of this sort of better world is that men aren't putting women in bad positions and conversely, women aren't having consistent unpleasant sexual encounters.

Obviously if you're the sort of dude who simply cannot give a **** about other people, or collectively, if we assume men writ large are simply incapable of reaching the lofty plateaus of "care about women" then sure, the 2nd best option is for men to stop doing this **** and for women to aggressively reprimand them rather than meekly submit and feel creeped out. But I think the female 'responsibility' to scream 'no' at people should be considered like the absolute last resort or something. A more just world would have norms that ended unpleasant, unwanted or uncomfortable sexual encounters long before that happened. The path there is to affirm that a healthy masculinity means taking seriously the best interests of the person that you want to have sex with, not using them for your own ends or not caring about how they really feel so long as the bare minimum legal standards of consent are met.

If you care about sexual harassment then yes it is your responsibility to change the incentive structure for would-be harassers. This is a great place to start.

Agree with all of this.

It would be awesome if we lived in a utopian world but we don't, and until we do both men and women can take steps to move us in a positive direction. The idea that women are only able to make twitter posts or write articles after the fact, and are completely powerless in the moment to affect social norms is absurd. It robs women of the agency they desire.

People are not mind readers. Most of the mixed signals in her story consisted primarily of an internal monologue inside her own head. She didn't like what was going on. But she made out with him repeatedly and gave him 2 blow jobs (including one after she told him she didn't want to feel forced into having sex with him - which by her own account he never did force her.) She let him give her oral sex, and she let him stick his fingers in her mouth repeatedly. The finger thing admittedly sounds gross, but nowhere does she say she said no, or asked him to stop doing it. Maybe he thought she was digging it, who knows. A little clarity of communication (on both sides) would go a long way.

I an not absolving Ansari, he wasn't much of a gentleman based on her account. Maybe he missed whatever non-verbal cues she claims she was giving. He should have communicated better with her and made sure she was enjoying what was happening. But, he didn't assault anyone. Doing something you regret is not the same as being sexually assaulted. I'm sure she wishes she told him no on numerous occasions. The fact that one of them is a TV star doesn't eliminate all agency on the part of the other participant.

Editorial from the Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ac143f8d51f3

Top 2 things people spend time at.

1) Sleep
2) Work

Since you cannot find a date while sleeping odds are your spending most of your free time with coworkers. (Hormones > Brain function)

Now where else did humans USE to meet people socially.

BARS - lol what percentage of people go to bars these days compared to 20 years ago. Bars are good for one thing these days a 4000 dollar DUI or a decade or two for vehicular manslaughter. Maybe a drunken rape charge

Friendly get together (card games, book nights, clubs <-- game clubs, riding clubs, MC's not dance clubs with drugs and booze) actually probably still a good option these days other than the drama that happens when you fall in love with your best friends sister, getting divorced with 3 kids and never talking to your friends again.

Internet dating - Well it's huge farmers, Christians, little people, cosplay, aliens whatever there is a site for you... Downside 90 percent of the people probably only want a one night stand or to murder you.

While workplace romances are prob a bad idea...as it could ruin a promising career. it's probably the best place to get to know someone long term without the chances of getting thrown in Jail, a DUI, Ruining all your friendships, or getting murdered

He should have put a better ratio of WonTons in her soup. (I hope that's the actor)

no offense but in this post you sound like a weirdo. you think pestering co workers is a more attractive idea than internet dating because your less apt to be KILLED? just an awful take

If the only place you meet people is at work, chances are you are ugly and or a weirdo.

Look. She told him more than once she wanted to chill. He acknowledged it. When he allegedly said "it doesn't seem like you aren't sure now" or whatever it was, he was literally stating he was getting mixed signals. If that's true, if she was doing the push pull thing from his perspective, he should be as "assertive" in getting a clear answer as we are suggesting she be in saying "no". If not because he should care that he may be making a mistake she won't like, then, now, because that mistake can mean he looks like an ******* to a public he depends on having a good image for his livelyhood.

My point is how about men protect themselves by erring on the side of keeping their dicks dry and asking before they get themselves in a situation where they can be victimized by confused or vindictive women? Is that more outrageous than asking for a woman on a date to make sure she has a direct path to the door in case the guy she is with turns out to fall between a cad or ****ing rapist?

Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to just forget about sex on a first date, or casual hookups, period. Let some sort of actual relationship form first. Get to know each other. Have a few dates.

I'm not sure if that mindset is too puritanical (humans enjoy sex after all) - but maybe a little bit of delayed gratification isn't a bad thing. Had Ansari actually known her better, he could have perhaps interpreted her non-verbal cues more clearly. Or maybe she wouldn't have felt uncomfortable at all.

lol is that really what you got out of it ????

I do see a positive over maybe having a relationship with someone you have worked with and got to know over 5 years at work

vs

Blind internet date with screenname hatespublicplaces6969


The gist of my post is unless you live in a mega city where the **** are you supposed to meet anyone these days as opposed to 20 years ago.

If I did not get married before the age of the Iphone I would probably be living in an efficiency working 16 hrs a day to pay for the loot boxes on my Star Wars games....

But I guess eventual massive population decline due to Internet and gaming device addiction amongst developing nations due to less interest and the hazards and repercussions of trying to date someone is for another thread

as far as this aziz vs anonymous lady encounter goes, am I the only one who came away kind of hating both of them? Quit trying to fishhook this random lady? You blew him twice and let him chow on your box? wtffff unlikeable turds both of them honestly

Did you meet your wife at work? Or a box social because you sound old AF

Women should be taught how to say no but that it's like 5% of the problem. The other 95% are the guys involved in the sexual harassment situations.
But the problem is that we are looking at the tree ( Ansari doing creepy stuff ) and not the forest which is a culture in which women are harassed and feel threatened all the time.

Or you work 12-7's or two jobs to survive in todays society and literally prefer sleep over pretending to enjoy someone's company over dinner when all you can think about is having to be up in 4 hours...

HONESTLY ( I do not do this much )

But to be real I think a lot of people who post here in this section are smart, educated people who make a decent living and can get by quite comfortably working 40 or less hours a week and forget that the MAJORITY of people right now probably are not even close to being that well off where they can go do something every night of the week. (yuck I hate being serious around here already enough of that)

Derail over back to celebrities raping people

Who cares if there's some way to justify Aziz's actions (which I don't think there is but apparently a lot of people do)? The goal shouldn't be to have sex as many times as you can without technically committing sexual assault; it should be to only have sex with people who also want to have sex with you.

This is a pretty good post, the fact that so many women feel unsafe (whether you agree with their feelings incident to incident aside) is deeply concerning.


Maybe I am too glib because I sometimes resent being lumped in with other mens actions. I am also a physically imposing MoC so I probably find it tough to empathize with most people who feel threatened because I couldnt know how they feel, my lifes not like theirs

Work

WTF is old around here these days ?????????????? Like if I watch Starz Westerns channel every night old or liked New kids on the block old or anything older than entitled 18 year old whiner, old ?

Watch how you talk to the Rightful King of Politards
(plays Ric Flair music)

People emulate what they see.

Did you know Cheers was once the number one show on TV.... Every week zillions tuned in to see Sammy Sexually harass Rebecca, or Cliff's bigoted or racist line of the week. Or me just to see Norm make funny beer jokes.

It was not just Cheers It was everywhere and everything people wanted to be Sammy or Sammyish.

That does not justify or mean this behavior is right But now a whole new generation is around being exposed to the right way to act and treat women.

I think in a decade or two this kind of thing won't even be an issue in America anymore.

Problem is how do you stop the *******s who are doing it now who will never stop. Ya gotta make examples of people HARSH examples of people....

hopefully this will speed the conversion up.

its all good brother didnt mean to touch a nerve. Also I never said it was impossible to have a succesful relationship start from being co workers, it's just improbable. Also its just a very bad idea if you value your job in modern times, obviously if its a mcjob or whatever might as well socialize thats half the reason to work a mcjob. But if your at a career its a huge untenable risk to me unless you look like Channing Tatum or something and can get away with it

Dude. The non verbal cue misses are one thing but she gave verbal cues. He agreed to stop and just watch tv. Then he started again. The thing is, even if she did something between the stop and start that "signaled" to him green light, once the red light had been clearly lit once he should take it upon himself to be 100% sure before he goes again. How? **** maybe ask? Maybe he should just refuse himself? Wait until the second date? Let her be the aggressor? Idk, but I bet he wishes he took any of those options now, just like she wishes he did then.

I mean if we need sledge hammer rules such as no sex on a first date or no dating coworkers as individuals because some can't be arsed to figure out how make a good call, fine, but sometimes women also want to have sex on the first date, or only date, or not even date. The bull**** here is that is not out of bounds. It is just like the dating coworkers thing. The puritanical bull**** is partly what creates the dynamic of women wanting to pretend they are not interested, or needing to be acting out of their normal behavior to do it, or blaming a man or alchohol when they actually do want to have sex or feeling the need to experiment with the line of flirting and sending "signals" instead of just being honest. All of that can be visited.

Loooooooots of consensual hook-ups happen every single day. Consensual sex isn't the issue.