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Social Issues in an Anarchist State Social Issues in an Anarchist State

10-03-2008 , 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
Which would of course create a market for private security companies that cater exclusively to the special needs of rapists, murderers and thieves.
I am interested in seeing this business plan.
10-03-2008 , 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvn
I am interested in seeing this business plan.
Not me. I prefer a world where such an enterprise is a non-starter.
10-03-2008 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
Not me. I prefer a world where such an enterprise is a non-starter.
It is a non starter. Pretend we're venture capitalists and you looking for an investment. To help you, say we only care about money and are completely amoral capitalist bastards. Pitch it to us.
10-03-2008 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
It is a non starter. Pretend we're venture capitalists and you looking for an investment. To help you, say we only care about money and are completely amoral capitalist bastards. Pitch it to us.
If you mean a Freedonia venture capital firm, such would likely be out of the loop.

A private security firm catering to the special needs of a criminal clientele would probably be a defense company spin-off and/or based and capitalized offshore.
10-03-2008 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
If you mean a Freedonia venture capital firm, such would likely be out of the loop.

A private security firm catering to the special needs of a criminal clientele would probably be a defense company spin-off and/or based and capitalized offshore.
Offshore of where? There is no country. You need to raise the money to exploit this fantastic opportunity. So pitch it. You can pretend you're pitching it to your superiors in a defense firm if you like. Show me the costs and revenues. I do'nt care about people cos I'm an evil capitalist but I care about the bottom line so pitch it.
10-03-2008 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Offshore of where? There is no country. You need to raise the money to exploit this fantastic opportunity. So pitch it. You can pretend you're pitching it to your superiors in a defense firm if you like. Show me the costs and revenues. I do'nt care about people cos I'm an evil capitalist but I care about the bottom line so pitch it.
Wait a second tom, just wtf do you think you are doing here? The accepted format is "vague terrifying threat which demands precise, detailed solution," not the other way around. If he says there is gonna be locusts, then its on YOU to provide the 10-point locust-removal framework.
10-03-2008 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
If you mean a Freedonia venture capital firm, such would likely be out of the loop.

A private security firm catering to the special needs of a criminal clientele would probably be a defense company spin-off and/or based and capitalized offshore.
Getting capital "offshore" doesn't magically solve your problem. You still need a viable business model to get these offshore gold-egg-****ting unicorns to agree to capitalize your business venture.
10-03-2008 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Offshore of where? There is no country. You need to raise the money to exploit this fantastic opportunity. So pitch it. You can pretend you're pitching it to your superiors in a defense firm if you like. Show me the costs and revenues. I do'nt care about people cos I'm an evil capitalist but I care about the bottom line so pitch it.
It's basic economics. There's a segment of the market for security services that is being neglected by the established providers. A niche is therefore available to be exploited by an innovative firm catering to the special needs of those who have chosen a criminal lifestyle.
10-03-2008 , 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
It's basic economics. There's a segment of the market for security services that is being neglected by the established providers. A niche is therefore available to be exploited by an innovative firm catering to the special needs of those who have chosen a criminal lifestyle.
Ok mr. people what service do you intend to provide to these people and how do we make money from it?
10-03-2008 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01
Wait a second tom, just wtf do you think you are doing here? The accepted format is "vague terrifying threat which demands precise, detailed solution," not the other way around. If he says there is gonna be locusts, then its on YOU to provide the 10-point locust-removal framework.
Yeah this also works well for "won't X buy up all the Y" discussions I call it the dragons den argument which is a show that if you haven't seen you really should cos it's awesome.
10-03-2008 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Ok mr. people what service do you intend to provide to these people and how do we make money from it?
An organized gang wouldn't necessarily need security and protection but they would like some way of legitamizing their proceeds so they could function in normal society. Those services have been provided and are profitable in states. But to be fair a mafia type organization needs a state to exist right?
10-03-2008 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Yeah this also works well for "won't X buy up all the Y" discussions I call it the dragons den argument which is a show that if you haven't seen you really should cos it's awesome.
There is a US version called "the shark tank" in the works. If the dow goes to 5k, though...
10-03-2008 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Ok mr. people what service do you intend to provide to these people and how do we make money from it?
The business model is the same as for the rest of the security industry, the distinction being that service is geared toward a niche clientele: pirates, murderers and other outlaws. The absence of the rule of law in Freedonia would create this market opportunity.

"You got the crime, we got the time."
10-03-2008 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleeds
An organized gang wouldn't necessarily need security and protection but they would like some way of legitamizing their proceeds so they could function in normal society. Those services have been provided and are profitable in states. But to be fair a mafia type organization needs a state to exist right?
I just need it to be broken down for me like I'm an idiot. I have a few million to invest and I want a good return on that money I'm prepared to take some calculated risks of course but seeing as there's no fiat currency inflation is very low or even negative so I don't need to take big risks to beat it. If I invest my money in your "helping criminals out" business what will you do with it and how will I see a return?
10-03-2008 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
The business model is the same as for the rest of the security industry, the distinction being that service is geared toward a niche clientele: pirates and other outlaws. The absence of the rule of law in Freedonia would create this market opportunity.

"You got the crime, we got the time."
So we're providing security service to the section of the population who is most often involved in violent disputes? Won't we have to charge these people enormous premiums to make this anything close to +ev for us? Also is it possible that pirates and thieves may when it comes time to pay these enormous premiums be inclined to back out? Then won't we have to spend even more money chasing up the premiums?
10-03-2008 , 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
So we're providing security service to the section of the population who is most often involved in violent disputes? Won't we have to charge these people enormous premiums to make this anything close to +ev for us? Also is it possible that pirates and thieves may when it comes time to pay these enormous premiums be inclined to back out? Then won't we have to spend even more money chasing up the premiums?
Not significant issues.

The murderer, rapist and thief, who must obtain security somewhere, have an enormous incentive to deal straight with their private security firms or face either increased fees or being ostracized by the industry.
10-03-2008 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
I just need it to be broken down for me like I'm an idiot.
Too modest, I hope I don't fall into your trap.

Quote:
I have a few million to invest and I want a good return on that money I'm prepared to take some calculated risks of course but seeing as there's no fiat currency inflation is very low or even negative so I don't need to take big risks to beat it. If I invest my money in your "helping criminals out" business what will you do with it and how will I see a return?
You give me and my buddies money to set up a legitimate business, say a few restaurants or an online poker site for instance, we launder our money (after all cooking a few books is nothing to us), you get a return from your involvement in your astute business ventures and everybody agrees we are just upstanding members of the business community. Hurrah for us.

But again it could only happen in a state right?
10-03-2008 , 02:07 PM
How are those companies going to protect the thief from being shot in the face when he breaks into my store?
10-03-2008 , 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
Not significant issues.

The murderer, rapist and thief, who must obtain security somewhere, have an enormous incentive to deal straight with their private security firms or face either increased fees or being ostracized by the industry.
Is this like the poor people with nonexistent credit ratings who must obtain loans somewhere and have an enormous incentive to deal straight with their Payday loan joints or face either increased penalties or being ostracized by the industry?

And is that why the default rate for Payday loans is so high? (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n18781206/pg_1)
10-03-2008 , 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollinHand
How are those companies going to protect the thief from being shot in the face when he breaks into my store?
The element of surprise, most likely.
10-03-2008 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nepenthe
Is this like the poor people with nonexistent credit ratings who must obtain loans somewhere and have an enormous incentive to deal straight with their Payday loan joints or face either increased penalties or being ostracized by the industry?
No, it's for established professionals.
10-03-2008 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleeds
Too modest, I hope I don't fall into your trap.



You give me and my buddies money to set up a legitimate business, say a few restaurants or an online poker site for instance, we launder our money (after all cooking a few books is nothing to us), you get a return from your involvement in your astute business ventures and everybody agrees we are just upstanding members of the business community. Hurrah for us.

But again it could only happen in a state right?
Ok so our business idea is to turn money acquired through illegitimate means into money which appears to be acquired legitimately. Well there may be a market for that but it's got nothing to do with security and it begging the question that there will be these super rich gangsters who care about their image enough to launder money (no taxes to avoid remember) and that we do a good enough job that people won't see thought it (the court of public opinoin needs far less evidence than a criminal court). I could possibly see us eeking out some money doing that but I hope you've got a big potential client list drawn up, and it can't be common knowledge that these people are thugs or our reputation is in the can as well and we'll lose our other legitimate business which I'm guessing will be worth more. This isn't anything near the business that famous was suggesting though.
10-03-2008 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleeds
You give me and my buddies money to set up a legitimate business, say a few restaurants or an online poker site for instance, we launder our money (after all cooking a few books is nothing to us), you get a return from your involvement in your astute business ventures and everybody agrees we are just upstanding members of the business community. Hurrah for us.
You left out a few steps, methinks. This doesn't say anything about actually providing the security services to the dregs of humanity. You're just moving some money around.

Less handwaving plz.
10-03-2008 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by famouspeople
Not significant issues.

The murderer, rapist and thief, who must obtain security somewhere, have an enormous incentive to deal straight with their private security firms or face either increased fees or being ostracized by the industry.
So we charge them exorbitant fees (we have to to break even) and make murder theft and violence incredibly unprofitable.
10-03-2008 , 02:24 PM
Example.

You're a thief. You break into my store and try to steal something. Oops, one of my private security teams catches you. You're now under their custody. We bring you to the private court that has jurisdiction over anybody who enters my private property. You're found guilty and put in a private prison for however long the private court deems fair. At what point would your private security firm be able to step in here? They'd have to start a small war just to save you. My security firm would be forced to prove they could fight you off or risk losing all their business. A private firm can not stay in business fighting a war every single time one of their clients gets caught.

      
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