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Old 06-21-2008, 02:22 AM   #1
canis582
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Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

If you say yes, what would you base pay on for my loved one, who is a k-2 music teacher?
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:25 AM   #2
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

that would be great news for me.

your loved one should probably get no more than the person who teaches finger painting and macaroni sculptures.
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Old 06-21-2008, 03:24 AM   #3
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

they could be, but it should probably be based on some sort of improvement scores over the year and have lots of fancy charts like:
came in at 5.2 grade level, left at 6.8 grade level good job. And then compare it to all the other schools. This would assume though that standardized tests measure better than what they are now, because right now they're pretty ****ty and it winds up that teachers just teach to let the students do well on one standardized test instead of develop some sort of well-rounded education or whatever.
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Old 06-21-2008, 03:29 AM   #4
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

haha i thought you meant the teachers take the tests, the smarter the teachers are the more they get paid.

i guess i failed the test
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:08 AM   #5
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Quote:
they're pretty ****ty and it winds up that teachers just teach to let the students do well on one standardized test instead of develop some sort of well-rounded education or whatever.
.
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:30 AM   #6
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Basing teacher pay on test scores would be lunacy. Basically it's advocating the creation of an incentive for teachers to jam test-taking techniques down the throats of their students 200some days of the year rather than actually educate them and create a foundation that higher education is intended to build on.

This is my biggest issue with No Child Left Behind and likewise measures - by placing so much emphasis on raw baseline scores (even rather than improvement) we're creating a new generation of test-taking robots without any analytical skills or ability to apply at all. Tests are incredibly blunt and lack any kind of content validity with regards to measuring quality of education.
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:58 AM   #7
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

I would prefer to completely dump standardized testing. Schools recieving funding based on these scores has ruined public education. Students are being taught the tests and nothing else. A much better barometer of a schoold district's ability to educate it's students would be the percentage of students who obtain a bachelor's degree 4 years after leaving the public school system. Award funding based on that statistic.
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:26 AM   #8
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

"Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?"

I hate this idea
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:45 AM   #9
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Your loved one should probably get paid whatever the people who send their kids to his class think he is worth and are willing to cough up. But call me old fashioned.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:13 AM   #10
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

She already gets paid what the residents of her school district want, via school board elections.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:35 AM   #11
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

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Originally Posted by canis582 View Post
She already gets paid what the residents of her school district want, via school board elections.
Well that isn't what I was talking about, fwiw. I suggested that the people who use her services should decide what she is worth to them, and pay it if they're willing.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:50 AM   #12
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

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Originally Posted by captZEEbo View Post
they could be, but it should probably be based on some sort of improvement scores over the year and have lots of fancy charts like:
came in at 5.2 grade level, left at 6.8 grade level good job. And then compare it to all the other schools. This would assume though that standardized tests measure better than what they are now, because right now they're pretty ****ty and it winds up that teachers just teach to let the students do well on one standardized test instead of develop some sort of well-rounded education or whatever.
That's on the right track. Whatever metrics are put in place, it will be complex and many will squawk. But it's an exercise in fantasy, the NEA et al will be in the streets with torches and pitchforks before this is allowed to happen. Every bad teacher deserves a champion, yes?
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:01 AM   #13
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

This standardized test thing would be bad. This would say someone who teaches austistic children would get paid way less than someone who teaches gifted children, and I am quite certain the person teaching kids with autism has a harder job.

Even if we took into account the special classes, one teacher could be stuck with a class that had a horrible teacher the previous year, whereas another had a class that had an extremely good teacher. The person stuck with the class from a horrible teacher would have to go back and fix the mistakes that the first teacher made, thus even if he or she was a better teacher, that person would get paid less.

Another case would be one class full of kids who are somewhat neglected by their parents, while another class has quite a few well off kids whose parents higher tutors for them to keep them up to speed. Again, the standardized test doesn't really show who is the better teacher.
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Old 06-21-2008, 03:34 PM   #14
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

I teach music 1,2,3 one day a week. I'll freely admit that there's basically no economically optimal scenario where any elementary student should take music.

Then again, we could also feed 6, 7 and 8 year olds warm paste and water at lunch and eliminate recess.

Many might agree that kindergarten is the first step toward later scholastic success. At least in Massachusetts, there are no standardized tests for K,1, or 2. Does a 2nd grade teacher do a less important job than a 3rd grade teacher?
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:52 PM   #15
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Read "Freakonomics" for an in-depth discussion of all the problems with attaching economic incentives to testing. Besides the problems already discussed here (curriculum suffers in favor of "teaching the test"), but teachers suddenly start cheating at an alarming rate. This, of course, hurts the kids even more, when they show up thoroughly unprepared for the next grade.
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Old 06-21-2008, 05:03 PM   #16
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Standardized tests are fine, I mean you have to have some accountability for kids actually leaning stuff and without standardized tests there's no good way to know. However the problem is that the tests are often too rigid or specific, or otherwise poorly constrtucted and restrict teachers' curriculums too much, hence the phrase "teaching to the test". Still, the bottom line is that there ae some things like arithmetic, basic algebra, reading comprehension, and basic language skills that anyone in an American public school should learn, there's no getting around it, and this is what standardized tests are for.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:26 PM   #17
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

no to the question, but teacher base pay should be lowered and bonus' awarded based on standardized test scores, among other things.

The NEA is ruining our educational system.

I know I am going to get flamed for these things. I am too tired to enlighten you folks, but hopefully I'll be on tomorrow to fully explain my positions. Look at my post count, I'm not trolling, just legitimately too exhausted to express my opinions in a logical and cogent fashion.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:01 PM   #18
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Anyone who thinks this is an idiot. It would hurt students big time for this to happen.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:09 PM   #19
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

any idea for "fixing" public education that isn't scrap the whole damn mess and start again is doomed to fail imo
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:20 AM   #20
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1 View Post

The NEA is ruining our educational system.

I know I am going to get flamed for these things. I am too tired to enlighten you folks, but hopefully I'll be on tomorrow to fully explain my positions. Look at my post count, I'm not trolling, just legitimately too exhausted to express my opinions in a logical and cogent fashion.
wat
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:53 AM   #21
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

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Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
any idea for "fixing" public education that isn't scrap the whole damn mess and start again is doomed to fail imo

RIGHT ****ING ON
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:33 AM   #22
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

I think there should be some form of this, but only to a small degree. Having absolutely no differentiation on pay for teachers could be considered inequitable to the great teachers and have no incentive for lazy or poor teachers to improve. Complete merit pay has its own problems as others have outlined. I think given the answer to the question of "What do we want children to get out of education?" is not "higher test scores", it's a lot of other intangible, difficult to measure attributes that simply have a moderate positive correlation with test scores.

Some might argue that any teacher who would improve so much as result of incentives doesn't have the innate love of teaching that means they should be in the professional in the first place. I'm not sure how many teachers are like this - research would be helpful here. If it turns out most teachers try pretty hard anyway, "merit pay" would do more harm than good. If a sizeable number respond heavily to incentives, perhaps the benefits may outweigh the costs.

Perhaps focusing somewhat heavily on the extremes might work. Instead of using a little bit of unreliable evaluation to try to rank everybody, maybe just ensuring the worst teachers and best teachers are constantly recognised could solve most problems, since they'd be the most overpaid and underpaid respectively. Teachers who have produced relatively very low/very high test results and have very low/very high student satisfaction on surveys could be audited and fired/given a raise based on the opinion of the committee.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:27 AM   #23
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

Why should a guy who's been busting his ass for 20 plus years and been paid a ridiculously low wage to begin with, all of a sudden be responsible for his student's performance on a stupid standardized test in order to get the money he needs to pay the bills and get by?

All of this type of talk seems based on the idea, held by a lot of people, that teachers just don't work as hard as everyone else, which is obviously ridiculous. Teachers are not required by contract to do any work at home and are seemingly paid in accordance with this idea that they "ONLY" work from 8 to 3 or whatever. Teachers are heroes and deserve to be treated as such. Not like dogs that need a bone dangled in front of their faces in order to do something.

If you're so worried about lazy teachers, start by paying them what they deserve, not by paying them through something they have little control over.
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Old 06-22-2008, 10:28 AM   #24
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

grunch

basing any kind of quality assessment or meritocratic pay scale upon test results is a recipe for disaster when applied in the educational system. Pretty obvious why.
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:03 PM   #25
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Re: Should teachers be paid based on standardized test results?

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