September LC thread!!!1! - Page 15 - Politics and Economics

Indeed. Either this time is like the last times and people will adjust and be generally richer OR no will need to work because robots will do everything for us and we will live in a post-scarcity world where providing for the poor is a trivial challenge.

09-10-2014 , 03:02 PM

#353

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

...and we will live in a post-scarcity world where providing for the poor is a trivial challenge.

Given how the entirety of civilized history is, in its simplest form, the story of individual people trying to take more and more for themselves at the expense of others, I'm skeptical that a critical mass of robots suddenly changes human nature to be like "yay, now everyone can have everything they need! Utopia is here!"

Providing for the poor is a solvable challenge right now and look how few ****s people give about the welfare of those around them.

09-10-2014 , 03:03 PM

#354

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

How will we cope with this grim dystopian future where nobody has to work because robots provide for all our material needs?

If recent history is any guide, by vilifying the people who don't work.

What makes you think everyone will immediately come to the common sense revelation that we should just pay everyone a living wage - w/o going through a lot of strife first?

09-10-2014 , 03:06 PM

#355

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by [Phill]

Something service related rather than manufacturing related. Like working tables in a restaurant or whatever.

So you see enough human-centric service jobs rising up to fill the void? What gives you that confidence?

09-10-2014 , 03:06 PM

#356

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

I'm not sure that's a completely fair summary of the entirety of history.

09-10-2014 , 03:07 PM

#357

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ogallalabob

UBI= government should pay everyone "x" just because.

Living wage= employers need to pay their workers enough to live.

try Googling: universal basic income

Ah. I did google UBI but got a lot of bank of India stuff.

Fwiw when I said living wage itt I meant UBI.

09-10-2014 , 03:08 PM

#358

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

the US is full of fat people who have air conditioning and 500 TV channels, I'd say you're pretty wrong here. They might be working but they aren't spending 16 hours a day doing backbreaking manual labor in rice paddies.

That's maybe a description of 6% of the population. Try again.

09-10-2014 , 03:10 PM

#359

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

I'm not sure that's a completely fair summary of the entirety of history.

No, it isn't, but I'm sure you know what I'm saying about how the idea of this happy post-scarcity world where everyone is provided for conflicts with what we know about human nature in today's world (and the world for the last 5,000+ years).

09-10-2014 , 03:12 PM

#360

Huehuecoyotl

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No one know about Marx's view of industrialization itt?

09-10-2014 , 03:13 PM

#361

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

That's maybe a description of 6% of the population. Try again.

pvn has a point in that manual labor (in the US) is a lot cushier now vs. sweatshops or peasantry.

We should really consider shortening the work week given productivity gains. That's one way to keep more people meaningfully employed.

But of course Fox & co will have the people who would benefit the most from a shorter work week frothing at the mouth to stop it.

09-10-2014 , 03:13 PM

#362

bobman0330

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Of course, you guys are so blinded by nationalism that you only care about poor Americans, who will do just fine. The truly chilling implications of smart robots apply to the developing world. Robotics will yank away the ladder of industrialization and development, and the rich world is far, far too racist to have any interest whatsoever in helping the global poor.

09-10-2014 , 03:16 PM

#363

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

If you graphed generosity of welfare provision against level of economic development, where do you think the trend line points?

09-10-2014 , 03:17 PM

#364

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

If aliens came down and wanted a rationalization for cleansing humanity off the planet - they could just go look at Africa, then watch the Real Housewives of wherever.

Decision made. Ascension Protocol.

Last edited by suzzer99; 09-10-2014 at 03:23 PM.

09-10-2014 , 03:19 PM

#365

Huehuecoyotl

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

I think liberals don't think enough of the positive impacts of globalization. Commiserating about the poor in Appalachia is fine but they became (relatively) poor as the (relatively) poorer in China could rise up. The liberal goals of national poverty reduction is (somewhat) at odds with the concern of the global poor. On the other hand I don't think the proponents of global capital really have much of a solution to the problems of global capital, except for "let the market sort it out".

09-10-2014 , 03:21 PM

#366

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

If you graphed generosity of welfare provision against level of economic development, where do you think the trend line points?

Few of these advances in welfare come from altruism or common sense though. The vast majority of them come through hard-learned experience - like riots, wars, terrorism, coups and revolutions. 1000 years of suffering went into the Magna Carta.

I'm not saying we won't eventually get to a world where everyone's basic needs are provided for by robots. I'm just saying I see a lot of upheaval first.

09-10-2014 , 03:26 PM

#367

ikestoys

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Given how the entirety of civilized history is, in its simplest form, the story of individual people trying to take more and more for themselves at the expense of others

09-10-2014 , 03:34 PM

#368

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

The welfare state was mostly invented in the last 100 years in the US and Western Europe. It's hard to think of a period in time that was less afflicted with coups and revolutions.

09-10-2014 , 03:42 PM

#369

suzzer99

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

The welfare state was mostly invented in the last 100 years in the US and Western Europe. It's hard to think of a period in time that was less afflicted with coups and revolutions.

There was very real fear of a socialist revolution in the 30s - which directly spurred a lot of labor reforms.

Going back to the Gangs of NY time it took rioting and pillaging to get stuff like running water and sewers to the poor.

In recent times, I don't think it's 100% coincidence that the welfare state expanded after the LA riots and crime-ridden late 80s/early 90s - nor that crime is down and there haven't been major riots since.

09-10-2014 , 03:42 PM

#370

pvn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

That's maybe a description of 6% of the population. Try again.

lol wut

like 33% of the country has diabeetus

09-10-2014 , 03:56 PM

#371

kimoser22

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

People still do believe in rewarding their tribe before others, and our Nation is our extended tribe...also can we let our Fed overlords debate the impact of technology on employment paper and instead lol at this donkey right wing site

Quote:

The United States Air Force has refused to allow a sergeant to re-enlist because he will not say "so help me God."

The Air Force is doing exactly the right thing here. There is no place in the United States military for those who do not believe in the Creator who is the source of every single one of our fundamental human and civil rights.

Serving in the military is a privilege, not a constitutional right. And it should be reserved for those who have America's values engraved on their hearts.

09-10-2014 , 04:00 PM

#372

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

lol wut

like 33% of the country has diabeetus

Why did I think trying to have a coversation with pvn was a good idea? What did I think would happen?

09-10-2014 , 04:04 PM

#373

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

If you graphed generosity of welfare provision against level of economic development, where do you think the trend line points?

That's true, but there's also a *lot* of resistance to it (see: people cheering dying in the streets @ Rep primary debates, Fox News on CAN U BELIEVE THEY HAVE REFRIGERATORS) and still a lot of poverty and even homelessness in our developed society that pvn proudly trumpets as featuring 33% diabeetus with 500 TV channels. That the trend line has gone up - as you suggested, only rising from "0" within the last 100 years - may or may not indicate an ultimate endgame where everyone's basic needs are fully provided for.

09-10-2014 , 04:11 PM

#374

pvn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

Why did I think trying to have a coversation with pvn was a good idea? What did I think would happen?

lol at you

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

That's maybe a description of 6% of the population. Try again.

only 25% of US jobs are considered "physically active".

68% of US adults are overweight.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Gettin...74_Article.jsp

your "6%" is off by an order of magnitude.

09-10-2014 , 04:31 PM

#375

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

lol at you

only 25% of US jobs are considered "physically active".

68% of US adults are overweight.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Gettin...74_Article.jsp

your "6%" is off by an order of magnitude.

What in the actual **** do you think the US diabetes rate has to do with my claim that most people in the US still work for a living? Why am I even responding?

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