Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-07-2017, 05:59 PM   #51
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

In some ways it is more scary to me that my position is treated as insane itt than it is when I look at trash like 4chan or /theDonald.

I'm asking that we make claims with evidence and not instantly assume the worst of the other side UNTIL they have given us evidence to do so.

I still maintain, but am open to be proven wrong, there is exactly zero evidence Palin is a white supremacist.

Earlier this week a fake letter was posted itt supposedly from Bannon.

The fact that my calls to hold ourselves to a higher standard are laughed at does not bode well for the level of debate.
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:07 PM   #52
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,757
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
It's quite possible I am missing some information. Can you cite something that she is a white supremacist?

I don't doubt she is a racist but that's a much different thing.
*extreme nerd voice* SOURCE FOR THIS CLAIM?!?!?!
FlyWf is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:09 PM   #53
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 43,177
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
It's quite possible I am missing some information. Can you cite something that she is a white supremacist?

I don't doubt she is a racist but that's a much different thing.
I used to think the same thing and that you essentially had to go to meetings or officially belong to a group to count as a white supremacist, but not anymore. I think the meaning of the term "white supremacist" has changed a bit, but it's a fair change imo.

It's essentially impossible that at this moment Sarah Palin doesn't know what the 14 words are and is choosing to keep it up there. She owns it. That's pretty much a proclamation of membership to the group anyway so it fits either definition.
microbet is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:10 PM   #54
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,757
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
In some ways it is more scary to me that my position is treated as insane itt than it is when I look at trash like 4chan or /theDonald.

I'm asking that we make claims with evidence and not instantly assume the worst of the other side UNTIL they have given us evidence to do so.

I still maintain, but am open to be proven wrong, there is exactly zero evidence Palin is a white supremacist.

Earlier this week a fake letter was posted itt supposedly from Bannon.

The fact that my calls to hold ourselves to a higher standard are laughed at does not bode well for the level of debate.

Here's my question for you:

Why is the null hypothesis for you that she's not racist?

What on Earth has she done to earn the benefit of the doubt from you?
FlyWf is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:11 PM   #55
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,757
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

I mean **** the 14 words thing, Clovis, do you know who the ****ing Young Cons are?

Then **** the Young Cons thing....

SHE WAS PRAISING TRUMP'S OPENLY WHITE NATIONALIST SPEECH. That's what the article was about! Literally all the information you could possibly need to make this case is contained in that one ****ing tweet but you're rubbing all 7 of your brain cells together and acting just AGHAST and the effrontery of these damn race hoaxing libtards.

Never contradict the literate, son, you have your faith in markets but we know how to ****ing read.
FlyWf is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:12 PM   #56
zikzak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zikzak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The radical left
Posts: 18,975
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

I, for one, feel just terrible that there is a very slim outside chance Sarah Palin's good name is being besmirched in error.
zikzak is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:13 PM   #57
MrWookie
Don't Call Me Shirley
 
MrWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Treating my drinking problem.
Posts: 84,506
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
I mean **** the 14 words thing, Clovis, do you know who the ****ing Young Cons are?
Palin has tweeted their articles 6 times in the last 24 hrs or so, including one since the 14 words tweet.
MrWookie is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:14 PM   #58
prana
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
prana's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,771
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

There was this too:

Quote:
Royal felt he was making progress with Sarah Heath and when a couple of his musician friends approached, he waved them off. “But she saw them and got weird.”

“Sarah asked me if they were with me. I asked her what was up because she was obviously a little weird after seeing them,” states Royal, who has Native American blood in his ancestry is a fairly light skinned while his buddies were much darker.

“I don’t mean any harm,” Royal says Sarah told him, which is exactly what she meant but he recalls her saying that she doesn’t do black guys.

“I said ‘I’m Black,’” Royal relates, to which Sarah replied with, “Well, you aren’t really black. You’re like …”

Royal remembers her voice trailed off as if not knowing what to say next as the reality of the situation sunk in on her. “Then she got real confused and the conversation ended rather quickly and uncomfortably.”
She hasn't donned the hood yet tho!
prana is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:20 PM   #59
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet View Post
I used to think the same thing and that you essentially had to go to meetings or officially belong to a group to count as a white supremacist, but not anymore. I think the meaning of the term "white supremacist" has changed a bit, but it's a fair change imo.

It's essentially impossible that at this moment Sarah Palin doesn't know what the 14 words are and is choosing to keep it up there. She owns it. That's pretty much a proclamation of membership to the group anyway so it fits either definition.
This is an interesting debate. I don't think it's fruitful for us to assume anyone who is at all racist is a defacto white supremacist.

Tons of social science research has clearly shown we are all racist. There are no exceptions. Therefore, it is important to differentiate degree and kind.

I don't doubt Palin would fall closer to a white supremacist on a scale of racism than you or I. However, actual white supremacists fall much further along this scale. They are people who actively hate minorities and want to either rid the world of them through violence or create a segregated world where whites and no-whites don't mix.

We don't want to lose this distinction and we don't want to fall prey to the right's claims that racism is too often used as a political weapon and is simply hysteria.

In my opinion, this kind of conflation helps their claim.

Last edited by Clovis8; 07-07-2017 at 06:26 PM.
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:23 PM   #60
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
I, for one, feel just terrible that there is a very slim outside chance Sarah Palin's good name is being besmirched in error.
My argument has nothing to do with Palin's reputation. She is an awful human and one of the worst political figures currently active.

My argument is about us and our role in the larger debate.
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:24 PM   #61
Riverman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Riverman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 71,232
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Conservatives: the best case scenario is they're just ****ing idiots.
Riverman is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:27 PM   #62
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 43,177
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
This is an interesting debate. I don't think it's fruitful for us to assume anyone who is at all racist is a defacfo white supremacist.

Tons of social science research has clearly shown we are all racist. There are no exceptions. Therefore, it is important to differentiate degree and kind.

I don't doubt Palin would fall closer to a white supremacist on a scale of racism than you or I. However, actual white supremacists fall much further along this scale. They are people who actively hate minorities and want to either rid the world of them through violence or create a segregated world where whites and no-whites don't mix.

We don't want to lose this distinction and we don't want to fall prey to the right's claims that racism is too often used as a political weapon and is simply hysteria.

I'm my opinion, this kind of conflation helps their claim.
Maybe, maybe not. America is a little bit less racist now than when I was a kid. Black POTUS. Interracial couples on TV and irl not a big deal. Black quarterback or white boxer not a big deal. Maybe being cool with black co-workers, but not dating your daughter moves from "a little prejudiced" to "racist" and tweeting the 14 words goes from "racist" to "white supremacist."

But, I think the term "white supremacist" is just now taken literally to mean someone who thinks white people are better and it's fitting that they have more wealth and power because of it and not dedication to separatism or racial violence.
microbet is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:36 PM   #63
fatkid
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
fatkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ikesghanistan
Posts: 6,735
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Ha Clovis. Dude give up your getting crushed. You check raised all in on the river vs 6 players with bottom pair.
fatkid is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:38 PM   #64
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,757
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
I don't doubt Palin would fall closer to a white supremacist on a scale of racism than you or I. However, actual white supremacists fall much further along this scale. They are people who actively hate minorities and want to either rid the world of them through violence or create a segregated world where whites and no-whites don't mix.
I guess DVaut didn't fully go into this, but the other INCREDIBLY well worn dip**** racist technique is to parcel out a spectrum of racism where only the MOST racist thing counts as racist.

But the key to this is that it's an endlessly repeatable process, as shown here. The dang conspiracy libtards might call a someone a white supremacist who MERELY wants to rid the world of non-whites without violence, but me, galaxy brain, knows that if you can imagine a more white supremacist position than the one at issue then the one at issue isn't white supremacist.
FlyWf is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:39 PM   #65
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,757
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Sarah Palin has devoted her entire adult life to advancing the cause of white supremacy, Clovis, she's done more to advance that system than any individual tatted up Aryan Brotherhood meathead. You might recall that she and John McCain sparred about playing the Muslim card against Obama. McCain won that battle, but she won the war.
FlyWf is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:40 PM   #66
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

I realize I seem hollier-than-thou sometimes itt and the hall monitor. It is because I think the tenor and content of our discussion is important.

I honestly think it's critical we hold ourselves to a higher standard. It will be so easy to sink to the levels of the alt-right as we get more and more frustrated. It will be easy to always assume the worst. Care less and less about actual evidence as long as the claim supports our hatred of Trump or his people. Maybe spread a few knowingly false claims.

I'm guilty of some of this too. I've been temp banned a couple times from this thread for failing to follow my own advice.

As the right does everything it can to lower the bar on discourse and convince the world that long held social norms are quant and silly, we must push back hard.

We don't do so by acquiescing, but reinforcing.
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:42 PM   #67
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatkid View Post
Ha Clovis. Dude give up your getting crushed. You check raised all in on the river vs 6 players with bottom pair.
Thanks for the valuable contribution to the discussion.
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:47 PM   #68
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,757
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.7ab2cd619f9c

This is fine, the real important issue is that the left not ****ing get into any hysterics online
FlyWf is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:48 PM   #69
prana
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
prana's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,771
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

This is some epic chezzing. White nationalists today claim they don't advocate violence, just that their culture remains white. Now, how big is the difference between that and her not banging black dudes?
prana is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:48 PM   #70
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
I guess DVaut didn't fully go into this, but the other INCREDIBLY well worn dip**** racist technique is to parcel out a spectrum of racism where only the MOST racist thing counts as racist.

But the key to this is that it's an endlessly repeatable process, as shown here. The dang conspiracy libtards might call a someone a white supremacist who MERELY wants to rid the world of non-whites without violence, but me, galaxy brain, knows that if you can imagine a more white supremacist position than the one at issue then the one at issue isn't white supremacist.
This is an interesting point. They do actively try to move the goal and I can see a danger in my position of resisiting the urge to label it as such. I still don't think we are at a point where it useful to label every republican a white supremacist even when they are actively advocating for racist policy.

I think the distinction is still important both in the debate and to preserve our ability to raise alarms when actual white supremacist gain political power. Something that is actively happening.
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:49 PM   #71
Clovis8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Having a beer with Charles Darwin
Posts: 13,015
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.7ab2cd619f9c

This is fine, the real important issue is that the left not ****ing get into any hysterics online
Two things can't be important at the same time?
Clovis8 is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:52 PM   #72
simplicitus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
simplicitus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Getting Schwifty
Posts: 6,791
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Largely agree with Clovis and suspect Bannon/Miller more racist than Palin, but I am not and do not wish to become an expert on Sarah Palin. (Though Bannon did believe SP was the vanguard for the movement he wanted and made a hagiography about her.)
simplicitus is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:52 PM   #73
markksman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
markksman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ITT
Posts: 13,490
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Trump is getting worked. It won't just be lifting sanctions. Trump will end up GIVING HIS DAUGHTER TO PUTIN.
FYP
markksman is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:54 PM   #74
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 43,177
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
This is an interesting point. They do actively try to move the goal and I can see a danger in my position of resisiting the urge to label it as such. I still don't think we are at a point where it useful to label every republican a white supremacist even when they are actively advocating for racist policy.

I think the distinction is still important both in the debate and to preserve our ability to raise alarms when actual white supremacist gain political power. Something that is actively happening.
Yeah, and that happened. We went from the Republicans sometimes being a little prejudiced and talking about their cute little brown grandbabies to the party of Sarah Palin and Donald Trump.
microbet is offline  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:54 PM   #75
Yuv
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,525
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
I mean **** the 14 words thing, Clovis, do you know who the ****ing Young Cons are?
Out of curiosity, as I dont know - Who are the ****ing Young Cons?
Yuv is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online