Sure, OK. I didn't see your examples initially. Clearly it's more common for clickbait headlines to get up to numbers > 9 and maybe 14 isn't as random as I thought. Conceded.

Still, like I said, I think any responsible analysis has to include some priors: like I said, and I'm going to copy and paste from microbet since he did it succinctly: The article was about Trump's white power speech and comes from a conservative website and was posted and left up by an ultra-nationalist gun nut has to assume the likelihood one to many people in the content-sharing chain know the meaning and acted intentionally.

There was a separate question like this ("would you want a whole forum of Flys?!"). I'll take them together.

Obviously anything that trends to homogeneity is boring.

However, I think Fly on the whole improves the discussion on the forum. We could use a right-wing Fly! Implicit in all your point here is whatever "full Fly" is. I think I get the concept but the Full Fly is actually a bunch of solid content, knowledge, cultural references -- funny stuff. As I've tried to argue: even derision and shaming people, ridiculing them -- I consider them somewhat value neutral. I don't always see it as bad. I've made a hordes of bad posts on this forum over the years, people **** all over me, I consider their points and sometimes I run away with my tail between my legs and think differently or change my mind. Is that a crime? Did a bad thing happen there? No. It didn't.

Obviously, I can acknowledge the Fly style can be bad. I'm not praising it as ideal, or always appropriate. But it's a tool and it can be used and be effective. Obviously Fly or any of us are going to miss the mark sometimes. That's bad when that happens, but anyone who sets out to be witty and funny won't be perfect every time. And we're all adults here and should be able to deal with some harsh words on the internet, when the mistakes get made. I realize some of you read that and think we're now on the slippery slope to Ann Coulter calling 9/11 widows harpies, game over, THE DISCOURSE IS RUINED. But we can probably draw the line at the criticism being aimed at 1 person about a thing they wrote on the internet versus large numbers of people already victimized and broadcasting the view on TV. It's not a hard line to draw.

In the end: the people that REALLY lose their **** and really perpetuate the distraction are the people Fly interacts with. The people that are unused to being talked down to thanks to social privilege. Fly's skill is finding them. As I said, you can quickly identify the 5-10 low-self awareness, stridently haughty -- the guys with an unearned sense of pride -- the posters who follow Fly around with years long grudges and muddy up the forum with their usually hypocritical tone policing and whining and bickering. I can probably name the banned ones like ikestoys and Hasten Dan. Usually the posters are just as abrasive as Fly is accused of being. As I said, perhaps Fly has made other enemies who are better and closer to the side of the scale of a solid contributor. No one is perfect. On the whole, Fly is good for the forum and the problems Fly 'creates' are often more attributable to the special flower Flybabies who can't get over themselves.

Have a word with wookie about bringing toothsayer back. TS could have a go at that end of the job until someone better comes along. Has a nice line in flyian <cough> 'extrapolation' as well.

Oh wow you've really proven our point. Wait a minute, tho. UNO MOMENTO POR FAVOR.


How many of any of those

1) Are about a white nationalist "clash of civilizations" speech?

and

2) Don't ****ing identify the titular 14 ****ing words?

I know Yuv is dishonestly pretending to be offended at aspie being used(get that weak **** out of here, also, #triggered much?), but seriously, that you guys keep on defending this **** in the abstract instead of just identifying the obvious and famous 14 word stretch from Trump's speech that the title refers to is ****ing clinical. (somewhat hilariously, because lol wolves are terrible teachers, I've seen more neurotypical right wing idiots in the wild provide at least 2 different 14 word quotes as the answer!)

Oh you gotta be ****ing ****ting me.

I wonder who you think you compare to?

And you'll appreciate the mean name calling. He makes me so sad <sniff>

You can't do my schtick from the right because a lot of it is just a flipped and exaggerated version of internet libertarian rhetoric, as DVaut has patiently explained repeatedly, but lol chezlaw's parents got a talk from the guidance counselor about how their sweet little boy was falling behind in reading and so he was going to go to special classes and also spend his entire life on the dole.

Right wingers loathe me because I mirror the contempt they show for others back on them. So flipping it back doesn't do anything.

But like, just after someone got clowned on for comparing my fairly unexceptional abrasive nature towards racists to Ann Coulter who said awful things about Muslims, blacks, etc....

You come up with someone who ISN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO POST IN CHEZFRONT BECAUSE HE WAS TOO RACIST?

For ****'s sake it's like this entire argument is in ****ing reverse. Clovis did the same ****. For people who claim to worship the ****ing discourse you simpletons sure don't seem inclined to participate in it.

You were all so sure she obviously purposely meant to consciously reference the 14 words "both its content and the people who regularly use it". It's now appears that was likely incorrect. So what?

I now realize there is almost no appetite for self-reflection itt so this wont change many minds, but some of you need to seriously think about what you are doing here and what this forum is becoming. It IS getting more and more like /theDonald and the fact that not one person was willing to discuss the tone of the debate here but instead widely supported it is not a good sign.

Dvaut you were particularly awful. You are STILL acting like her tweet was intentional even in light of all the evidence to the contrary. How do you think things like pizza-gate happen? A community starts to care just a little less about truth. Then a little less until facts don't really matter. It's all easily justifiable because "they" are obviously awful people. Don't you think the exact same rational was and is used on the right? Sure it's destroys our credibility and feeds into the idea that there is no truth but at least we get to call the other side names one more time.

While I have highly respected your many post itt I still have no idea where you are coming from with the idea that screaming, mocking, swearing, ignoring evidence and no allowing even the tiniest bit of disagreement is somehow a GOOD thing for this community. As has been posted I would score in the top one perfect on a liberal scale yet I was literally called a GOP member because I would only call Palin a racist and not a white supremacist.

Again though NONE of this was about the attack on me. I've been in this forum for years. I can take it. It's about our actual goals. Are we just here to scream, yell and reinforce our hatred? Or, do we want to change a few minds? Do we really think based on the last few days we are ever going to change any minds when the next trumpkins wanders in here?

I've no doubt the truly awful posters here like Rep and osku will ignore this post and almost certainly respond with another base attack without content or self-reflection. I just hope a few people will really think about the bigger goal. We are trying to develop arguments to win the political discourse and caring less about truth and being more reactionary is not the way to go.

Again for the record and for the 12th time. This is not about Palin. I was NEVER defending her. She is awful. You can go back in my posts and find numerous examples of me hating on her. This was always about us and our goals.

This is why nuance matters.

Edit. I see fly is back so queue in all caps him calling me a ****ing moron while completely ignoring my larger point.

Edit 2: it is ridiculous the tweet is still up and is just one more bit of evidence Palin is a racist scumbag. That still doesn't speak to the original point of her tweet though.

In other news, Putin denied the hacks to Trump recently.

Dont get so upset fly, it was dvaut who wants a right wing fly. Obviously someone from the right wing who behaves remotely like you is going to be completely unacceptable - a nuance you might have picked up without me mentioning it.

But he manages your level of analysis and he does the name calling approach to politics. Who better than Toothsayer?

Nope! That was you doing that strawman **** you were doing.

Jesus Christ I have to hold you people's hands through everything. Maybe if you had a cultural background of ****ing knowing how the internet works or whatever you'd be able to figure this **** out.


1) Young Cons assigns Cayden McBrayden or whoever the **** to write up a puff piece about Daddy's speech in Poland

2) Cheeky little Cayden puts a 14 words reference in the title

3) His editor, Glurt Chimwad, catches that little scamp, pinches his bottom, shakes his finger sternly at him, and tells him to change it.

4) But the original title stays in the metadata that autopopulates upon being shared

5) Palin shares it

6) Palin doesn't take it down.


OK and real talk if we want to tally up "minds changed on 2p2" the total sitewide over history has to be like 12, right?

But of those? I have the ****ing green jacket. My fact based approach does change minds, swears or no swears.

Your unlimited benefit of the doubt system DENIES THAT MINDS NEED TO BE CHANGED IN THE FIRST PLACE, for ****'s sake.

Bro you defended Palin by using a strawman to act aghast at the attacks on her honor in the first sentence of the post you wrote this sentence in. Organize your thoughts next time.

I don't think you understood DVaut's post, but you're really ****ing proving his point by caping up for an EVEN MORE EXPLICIT white supremacist than BruceZ here. ToothSayer was a ****ing PizzaGater, get the **** out of here with that "level of analysis" ****.

P.S. Toothsayer, like Bruce, loathed you. Your puppy dog adoration only goes one way there lol. Story of your ****ing life, though, amirite?

You're doing that being mean again fly. You know how much that upsets me dont you? - I give you that much credit at least

TS calls me names because he strongly disagrees with my political views. You call me names because I'm not mean enough to people despite us sharing very similar views.

I'll still await any better suggestions on what right wing fly would look like, I accept TS isn't perfect but you are a fairly unique chap.

Could you, if fact, please go ahead and actually make that argument.

In particular, the claims that FlyWf's style of rhetoric (a) is detrimental to the quality of discussion, (b) ruins threads, and (c) drives people away. The deplorables, long before they were called deplorables, long before my eight shameful years as a Politard, have repeated the above accusations like some kinda shamanistic mantra.... to the point that the truth of these accusations has become a received 'truism' here in Los Dos Politards.

But...

Whenever I've asked for linkees, the deplorables have 100% failed to provide. This is easily, AINEC, the biggest whine in all the histories of Los Dos Politardias. The examples to document this never ending tidal wave of complaints and accusations about FlyWf's style of rhetoric must be legion... amirite ??

However... You're not a deplorable. Far from it. I'll go ahead and ask you the same question.

Can you provide any linkees to actual examples of FlyWf style rhetoric (either by FlyWf himself, or another poster) that (a) deteriorated the quality of a thread, (b) ruined a thread, or (c) drove a poster away from Los Dos Politardia?

Don't suppose there's any chance we can make this a containment thread for the SMPtards? Can Wookie even contain a green poster?

You do realize the difference between evidence and opinion? This is the latter. Sure you MIGHT be correct. However, talking points memo and the anti-defamation league don't think so. Hardly right wing hacks but also not evidence. The evidence is what Chris posted. Many examples of the coincidence of the meta data generated word counts.

You seem to think that accepting this community jumped in error on their assessment of this tweet somehow means we have to believe Palin is not a racist scumbag. The two things have nothing to do with the other. Both can, and in fact are true. She almost certainly didn't make the tweet to knowingly reference 14 words AND she is a racist scumbag.

It's simply disingenuous at this point for you to pretend I'm defending Palin. It's a lie. There is no other word for it. It's the rhetorical style of the alt-right. You are basically ignoring my actual content because the myth that I'm defending Palin is better for your argument. This is how we are becoming more like /thedonald.

I thought the argument was that she was racist but not white nationalist. A distinction without a difference imo.

I don't give a **** about your feelings. You're a drain on government resources and a moral tire fire of a person.

This is, amusingly, making stuff up. He doesn't call you names at all! (and obviously you and he agree on a great many political views)

I'm just telling you that he loathes you on a personal level, just like Bruce did. Neither of them ever told you, because they both thought it was funny to see you constantly stick up for them, compliment them, and so forth.

They are petty little bullies and you're their lickspittle sidekick, there's not a bond of mutual respect.

I call you names because they haven't invented a way to punch people through the internet yet, chezlaw. Fingers crossed that E3 2018 will remedy that!

This is just such a perfect selfown of chezlaw's amoral gleeful trolling. Caping up for a ****ing roster of exiled racists.

The point about the 14 words not being identified (they weren't, were they? ) is kind of devastating to the case that it wasn't intentional by the authors.

Clovis,

Maybe you were the first one to be a dick here. You may not have used all caps as much, but the tone of "you guys are just like /TheDonald" is I think where this conversation started to veer towards personal attacks. I don't think every reaction in this forum is or should be expected to be a perfectly thought out final answer. Some hyperbole and unfair vilification of our opponents and enemies is going to happen here. But, it's a long way from being the equivalent of the Hillary runs a pizza shop where she molests children and murders patriots that comes from not only the membership of chiefs planet, but half of the US Congress.

And it's not that big a deal, but it's rustles my jimmies a detectable amount.

So your theory is that they put the 14 words as the original title and changed it out of like, journalism?

Again, I know it's hard given that a-word that can't be said situation, but you want to talk about evidence? We're into like day 3 of this meltdown for you and you STILL haven't just provided the 14 word section of the speech that we can all agree was being referenced.

You're still weirdly doing the strawman about her intentions, but

You defended her, again, in this post. And what's really telling is that you're getting emotional about defending her, so emotional you're sort of losing the thread. Like you conceded she's a racist scumbag in this post, but earlier that was the sort of discourse lowering **** you were mad about?

You don't have any ****ing actual content, you're just a white dude on the internet mad at them college boys for seeing a dogwhistle. That is not a ****ing BREAKING NEWS hot take, that's actually the entire ****ing content of /thedonald.

And here's the ****ing key. The ****ing key.

The thing I find objectionable about the alt-right is the substance of their views, Clovis, not the rhetorical style. I really don't care about their rhetorical style! You obviously differ on that count. ******.

This shows a shockingly poor understanding of racism for someone on the left. As I posted itt, moutains of social science research has proven beyond a shadow of doubt we are ALL racist. That includes you and me.

Therefore, degree is very important. It matters if someone is acting with unconscious racism versus conscious racism because the effect is different as are the solutions.

It matters if a major political figure is a standard right wing racist versus a card carrying member of a white supremacist organization for the same reason.

Perserving our ability to raise alarms matters and if we are not willing to differentiate the politician supporting racist legislation like Trumpcare from card carrying white supremacists the people we are trying to convince will rightfully call us chicken little and ignore our other rational arguments.

Uh, who is "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

It's like how these dip****s got all scared and angry about Spencer got punched, saying that "using violence to achieve our goals makes us no better than the Nazis", like the defining bad feature of the Nazis was that they were the first military to deploy violence to achieve a goal.


It's a ****ing tell, Clovis, and you're really ****ing bad at not broadcasting that ****.

I'm not sure you're as nasty as you like to pretend but as long as you know that I don't give a **** what you <cough> 'extrapolate' about me then were fine either way.

The rest was poor quality by your usual standards fly. Maybe it's not toothsayer but what do you think a reasonably intelligent right winger who believes in hate, divisiveness and making things up for rhetorical purposes would look like?

1) What's racist about Trumpcare, carelord? SOURCE FOR THIS CLAIM?

2) Wait so you guys switched from The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but you switched it to ANOTHER CHILDREN'S STORY YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND? What the **** do you think Chicken Little did?

That is a fair point. I did make the /theDonald comment in my first post on the topic without any explanation. I concede that was bomb throwing on my part.

I do honestly think there are serious trends on our side which go beyond this thread suggesting more and more tolerance on the left in supporting the exact same tactics used by the alt-right.

This is why I'm alarmed.

The alt-right didn't spring fourth ignoring facts. It's always a slow change were each release of norms is explained until full on lying is seen as possible. This is how pizza-gate happens and I don't see why our side is immune, especially if we are not even willing to discuss it.