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Rich (Now with the Upper Middle Class) Rich (Now with the Upper Middle Class)

07-17-2014 , 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltanbuccos
If I make 50k in Pittsburgh, I would need 100k to live in Brooklyn with same lifestyle.

I don't understand why upper middle class is being judged in nominal salary wages rather than buying power. If I can buy 5 apples for $5 in one place, and only 2 apples in another place, clearly the first place can make someone's dollar stretch further. Econ 101 no?
Failing Econ 101 ITT.
07-18-2014 , 09:09 AM
I knew I recognized that name in the OP article from somewhere. It's the same dumb **** that mocks people with disabilities.
07-18-2014 , 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
Is 50k upper middle class? Or you just using that as an example?

Every single family I know that makes 200k views themselves as simply "middle class". I know many families that make between 200k and 300k and not one of them views themselves as "rich". But, that debate has been beaten to death.
My family is in that range and we are crazy rich, even though we have lots of student loan debt.
07-18-2014 , 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
Is 50k upper middle class? Or you just using that as an example?

Every single family I know that makes 200k views themselves as simply "middle class". I know many families that make between 200k and 300k and not one of them views themselves as "rich". But, that debate has been beaten to death.
No, I'm just using it as an example. I guess my point is if some people make 50k in Pittsburgh or Cincinatti, and are offered a job for 65-70k in NYC, they will take it because "OMG moar money moving up the money ranks" when in reality it's not a good move.

And in regards to the 200k middle class thing, it's really a matter of location and spending habits.
07-18-2014 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Failing Econ 101 ITT.
An explanation of what is correct would be cool.
07-18-2014 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltanbuccos
An explanation of what is correct would be cool.
I have two different kinds of apples for sale. One kind is $1/lb, one kind is $2/lb. Why does the more expensive apple cost more?

[ ] To spite those fools who are stupid enough to buy them
[ ] The more expensive variety of apples is in shorter supply relative to the demand for that variety of apple.

I have 3 identical houses on equal size plots for sale. One house is in an average suburban neighborhood. One is on the beach. One is in a high-crime neighborhood. Which of the following is true?

[ ] The average person should be completely ambivalent about these houses.
[ ] The average person would be ambivalent between the beach house and the suburban house, but they probably wouldn't pay as much for the house in the hood.
[ ] The average person would be ambivalent between the average neighborhood and the house in the hood, and they wouldn't want the house on the beach as much.
[ ] The average person would prefer the beach house to the average house, and the average house to the hood house.
07-18-2014 , 12:17 PM
Well I think this is more of what was said earlier itt, I think Zoltanbuccos main point was that we shouldn't only use nominal wages as a gauge of middle class. Which I think as a fair point, people have posted as to why getting up and moving isn't as easy as some would assume and why 45k can be considered working class in NYC and middle class in middle America.

I mean this NYC

is going to need to be higher than Pittsburgh and IMO it's not only because our hypothetical person is too lazy to find the minimum wage arbitrage and find, and move to, the city that has a low unemployment rate and the highest minimum wage relative to a good living wage.
07-18-2014 , 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimoser22
Well I think this is more of what was said earlier itt, I think Zoltanbuccos main point was that we shouldn't only use nominal wages as a gauge of middle class. Which I think as a fair point, people have posted as to why getting up and moving isn't as easy as some would assume and why 45k can be considered working class in NYC and middle class in middle America.

I mean this NYC

is going to need to be higher than Pittsburgh and IMO it's not only because our hypothetical person is too lazy to find the minimum wage arbitrage and find, and move to, the city that has a low unemployment rate and the highest minimum wage relative to a good living wage.
Yes, nominal wages don't really mean much across geography.

I also think minimum wages should vary across states based on cost of living, but that is a whole different story. I have no idea if people are actually paid $7.25 for jobs in NYC or that price has risen with market conditions.
07-18-2014 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizy
Wookie making very pvn like libertard arguments in case anyone hasn't noticed.
+1....definitely not his best work.

Wookie,

None of what you say matters. It is totally fine to say that X in NYC is equivalent to .6X in Pittsburgh or whatever (just like we do with 2014 dollars vs 1960 dollars etc). The subjective reasons why people are willing to pay more for the same apple in NYC doesn't change the objective math that it costs more.
07-18-2014 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizy
They should be trailing TO NYC.

And I did say even when controlled for income differentials.

And I made that post specifically because someone else pointed out even the poor can move relatively cheaply nowadays.
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
07-18-2014 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dessin d'enfant
+1....definitely not his best work.

Wookie,

None of what you say matters. It is totally fine to say that X in NYC is equivalent to .6X in Pittsburgh or whatever (just like we do with 2014 dollars vs 1960 dollars etc). The subjective reasons why people are willing to pay more for the same apple in NYC doesn't change the objective math that it costs more.
It costs more, of course, but it's pretty stupid to say that someone who lives in a beach house is worse off than someone who lives in a cheaper house in a worse location just because the better house costs more, leaving them with less to spend on other things. The location you're in is part of your quality of life, and a lot of people are willing to pay a big premium for that. You may have different preferences, but there's not much reason to discount someone's quality of life when that's a big reason their living expenses are what they are.
07-18-2014 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
It costs more, of course, but it's pretty stupid to say that someone who lives in a beach house is worse off than someone who lives in a cheaper house in a worse location just because the better house costs more, leaving them with less to spend on other things. The location you're in is part of your quality of life, and a lot of people are willing to pay a big premium for that. You may have different preferences, but there's not much reason to discount someone's quality of life when that's a big reason their living expenses are what they are.
Right, people are paying a premium to live in NY and we are trying to measure that premium.
07-18-2014 , 03:17 PM
A bit of an aside... but a house in the "hood" of NYC is worth a lot more than 90+% of beachfront properties.
07-18-2014 , 03:41 PM
According to the Center for Health and Well-being at Princeton University, 99k HH income get you maximal happiness in NYS.


07-18-2014 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
This is exactly the sort of bloodless analysis that ACists and libertarians get excoriated for in this forum.

I understand the logical point that you are trying to make, but is the first gen Pakistani who lives in a Pakistani neighborhood in NYC really purchasing "luxury" in the same way that a rich guy is purchasing luxury when he buys a penthouse apartment with exclusive roof access? According to your analysis, the answer is yes, but in the real world, the answer is no.

Leaving behind friends and family (often wives and kids) to immigrate to a VERY different country is an alienating experience. Our Pakistani friend is not living in NYC for the "luxury" of having his "favorite" neighbors. Some amount of community support may be the bare minimum that he needs to start his life over in the US. Comparing a basic human desire for community with a desire for a beachfront property is ridiculous imo.
Because the cheaper mid-west would be that much more welcoming/embracing of the Pakistani guy...

Even more-so in the bible belt, go 'merica! states riddles with islamaphobia.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lycosid
Also, do you have a cite for the racial difference? I just did a quick check on the census bureau website, and got a white nonmover (I included moving within the same county) percentage for people up to 150% of poverty at .6% lower than blacks. For hs grads and below, black nonmover was .5% lower.

I would have actually expected to see the effect you stated, due to housing and job discrimination, but it doesn't seem to exist.
Moving within county isn't quite the same as moving out of state. Many Blacks become displaced within their communities do to unstable jobs, so they tend to move around locally for work. I wouldn't be surprised if you ran it at only 100% poverty rate or less that Blacks moved around a bit more. Though I would be surprised if it were over long distances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grizy
Wookie making very pvn like libertard arguments in case anyone hasn't noticed.
Yeah, not his best performance.

b
07-18-2014 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
I have two different kinds of apples for sale. One kind is $1/lb, one kind is $2/lb. Why does the more expensive apple cost more?

[ ] To spite those fools who are stupid enough to buy them
[ ] The more expensive variety of apples is in shorter supply relative to the demand for that variety of apple.

I have 3 identical houses on equal size plots for sale. One house is in an average suburban neighborhood. One is on the beach. One is in a high-crime neighborhood. Which of the following is true?

[ ] The average person should be completely ambivalent about these houses.
[ ] The average person would be ambivalent between the beach house and the suburban house, but they probably wouldn't pay as much for the house in the hood.
[ ] The average person would be ambivalent between the average neighborhood and the house in the hood, and they wouldn't want the house on the beach as much.
[ ] The average person would prefer the beach house to the average house, and the average house to the hood house.
Honestly, Wookie, you get an F triple minus for your work in this thread. Are you seriously disputing that a large component of NYC cost of living is paying for income, and not paying for access to great restaurants, etc.
07-18-2014 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
It costs more, of course, but it's pretty stupid to say that someone who lives in a beach house is worse off than someone who lives in a cheaper house in a worse location just because the better house costs more, leaving them with less to spend on other things. The location you're in is part of your quality of life, and a lot of people are willing to pay a big premium for that. You may have different preferences, but there's not much reason to discount someone's quality of life when that's a big reason their living expenses are what they are.


lol @ everyone hating on Wookie itt.
07-19-2014 , 01:35 AM
I saw NYC garbage man used as an example of a low earner earlier in this thread. If a garbage man married a garbage woman in NYC, I'm pretty sure their household income would be right around $200k (assuming they each had over 5 years on the job).

Well short of UMC by most standards as well.
07-19-2014 , 01:38 AM
[ ] citation needed

And really y'all spent a couple hundred posts about how it's expensive to live in NYC. No ****. Well done.
07-19-2014 , 01:44 AM
Actually my post was about how much people, civil servants in this case, get paid, not how much it costs to live.

DSNY Garbage men make 70k base. Add in overtime, night diff, uniform allowance, etc. and they can clear $100k pretty easily. Many other city agencies make more (cops, firemen) and the neighboring police departments all make much more than NYPD.

I only bring this up to illustrate that 2 civil servants in the city can easily earn over $200k. Would anyone call them rich?

Edit: if using NYC jobs is unfair for whatever reason, let's change it to 2 NYS Troopers living in Buffalo. Are they rich?
07-19-2014 , 01:50 AM
Rich? That wasn't the discussion. And no certainly not, captain obvious
07-19-2014 , 01:57 AM
I thought I heard many in this thread saying over $200k was rich. Maybe I'm wrong. Ok not trying to be argumentative or hostile, so I don't really understand the name calling.

I'm just saying couples with the same job, and what they make. The numbers I'm getting seem to be at odds with much of what I've read in this thread.

Another example, an NYPD detective married to his or her Sergeant could very easily have a household income of $300k plus. Also their combined pensions after 20 years of service would be ~$175k with no state/city tax or further social security contributions. They are free to move anywhere they like.
07-19-2014 , 03:24 AM
Yes, they're rich.
07-19-2014 , 03:31 AM
No its not
07-19-2014 , 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
It costs more, of course, but it's pretty stupid to say that someone who lives in a beach house is worse off than someone who lives in a cheaper house in a worse location just because the better house costs more, leaving them with less to spend on other things. The location you're in is part of your quality of life, and a lot of people are willing to pay a big premium for that. You may have different preferences, but there's not much reason to discount someone's quality of life when that's a big reason their living expenses are what they are.
You keep bringing up the beach analogy as if everything that makes NYC more expensive are luxuries, but they're not. Part of it is surely paying for proximity to higher paying jobs. It's an amenity, sure, but it's an amenity that you're double-counting if you're using income as your primary measure of well-being. It'd be like evaluating a farmer's financial status by completely ignoring the mortgage on the farm, because it's a "luxury" to live on a farm.

      
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