In your example, if we assume both cities are equally awesome, there should be a definite preference for the cheaper city, as after taxes, the people in the more expensive city come out behind. Thus, we'd expect to see housing prices rise in the cheaper city and drop in the more expensive one until people are ambivalent. You can't really sustain higher prices in one city unless there's a definite preference for living in that city.

I agree but I would argue that $57k is lower-middle-class and $120k is middle class. $57K for a family does not buy a typical middle class lifestyle in NYC. It's paycheck-to-paycheck with no room for retirement savings, vacations, or many luxuries at all.

Obviously the $120K household is doing better but that doesn't make them upper middle class. In the midwest they might be upper class and live in a Mcmansion, have lots of savings, and send their kids to private school. In NYC they are middle class with very little financial wiggle room and live in either a very small apartment or a $350K house in Levittown LI, Rahway NJ etc.

Because immigrants haven't been excluded from the better locations...

Environmental determinism, ftw!

Let me fix your post a bit here:


b

I am not disputing there are old and dilapidated public housing in NYC, mostly concentrated NYCHA developments (otherwise known as "projects.") Even existing "projects" in more gentrified areas are not what you'd expect anymore. You have to go north of 100 and worse parts of Brooklyn, Queens, and Bronx to find projects. Even there, they aren't much worse than the private housing near by.

What I am saying is they've been moving away from that model and expanding housing assistance instead.

Until de Blasio anyway. He seems to think if you pump more money into the projects, they'll stop being poverty traps.

So, confining the analysis to just nyc area, what are the broad income cutoffs between poor, middle class, and rich lifestyles. Is it something like 0-80k, 80-500, 500+?

Probably 0-~42 or so for "poor" to be honest. Once you get to 50 to 80, there are a lot of affordable (and gentrified) neighborhoods in Queens, Brooklyn, and Bronx with well developed public transport that will get you to anywhere in Manhattan in about 45 minutes. I am thinking for a family of 4.

If you rephrase the question to "sub 100th (or 90s far from subway) street Manhattan" then we're probably looking at about 80 for a single for non poverty. About 120k for a family of 4, I think.

Lots of variables but as a rough estimate I'd hazard maybe <35K, 35-65k, 65-170k, 170-300k, and 300k+

poor, lower mc, mc, upper mc, and rich.

35 to 42 is very awkward area. That's where public assistance decrease rapidly so there is actually very little difference between 35 and 42. EBT and housing assistance begins to go away here.

That goes up to about 50 if you have children. For families of 4, another big cut off with Medicaid (for kids) happens just under 60k (I don't remember) but Obamacare smoothes out that transition now so it's not as burdensome as it used to be.

Once you have 50, you really shouldn't have issues affording some of the nicer areas in Queens, Brooklyn, upper Manhattan, and Bronx. By 65 you should have some disposable income for savings but you might need a little extra to send the kids to private/magnet schools. Over 80k you're already thinking about getting a different zip code or sending the kids to a nicer private school.

Probably need ~150 to live in sub 90s Manhattan as a family of 4. ~5k a month in rent for a decent 2 bedroom apartment. That leaves room for some (but not much) in savings and still live rather comfortably. You might be around the median in Manhattan but most of the country would consider the standard of living solidly UMC.

I would at least triple all those numbers in your last two paragraphs for NYC.

Maybe if you don't eat. You're prob looking at 30k/yr. just in housing costs.

Thread's better with a variety of model budgets being roleplayed. How (and where) people live realistically is not going to be very realistically described with simple class designations.

Any clues how much student loan debt can push a middle class person into poverty in various places?

I don't want to get into a huge nitfest with you because I guess generally we agree, but there are substantial projects next to multimillion dollar brownstones in Carroll Gardens and projects all over LES and Alphabet City, among a few other places in Manhattan below 100. Anyway, yes, it's good they are moving toward assistance rather than cramming people into these ****ty projects with high crime and poverty.

It's doable if you have roommates. I know people who pay 1200ish a month for rent in Astoria, Park Slope, etc. and make 50k or less.

Obv it's different with kids, I'm not sure if that's what this is referring to.

You can get a 2 bedroom around Woodside or Elmhurst for like 1500 a month. Not exactly Bryant Park but those are decent areas. That's pretty reasonable for 50k a year.

36% of income before taxes is "pretty reasonable?"

Man, we're getting into "you can easily eat nutritious, filling meals on food stamps" territory.

Long Island and Upstate NY also have very high property taxes.

I commute from CT because for me to own a house for my family it made more sense. But I pay for it in lengthy commutes.

I can confirm that a family of 4 making $120K in the NYC metro area are not cozy. If they want to own a home they have to commute long distances.

My first apartment in NY was in Caroll Gardens. At the time (1993) it was cheap. We refered to it as a blue collar mafia neighborhood. While I was there it became gentrified and the rents went up like 50% in a matter of a few years.

I have people on my staff who are young... If you don't have parents helping you, and you're making 50-60K - you're either living below 45-60 minutes out (park slope) or you live in the city but you share a 1 bedroom apartment with 3 other people. (I remember having friends who separated a living room with a sheet to make it 2 bedrooms. and two others shared the actual bedroom)

When I lived in Astoria I remember living in a building where I saw some of my neighbors - an immigrant family with bunkbeds in the living room - I saw 6 adults and unknown number of kids living in what was likely a 2 -3 bedroom apartment.

That's still about half your take home pay just on rent, and that's with your kids sharing a bedroom (assuming a family of 4). Lower middle class I'd say.

I am pretty sure that's what I implied, with middle class starting right about 50.

Bolded is not even close.

What do you think that a "nicer private school" costs in NYC? Religious private school (Jewish, Catholic, etc.) is probably $15-20K. Super fancy private school is $40K+.

I personally would not feel comfortable living in NYC and spending $60K per year on private school tuition for two kids unless I made a minimum of $300K per year.

Takeaway from this thread: people have no ****ing clue how expensive NYC is.

If your kid gets in a top ranked private school on your 60k income, the school will help you find a way to pay. The average financial aid package (about 30% get financial aid at these two schools) at Pingry and Lawrenceville is like 38k, nearly enough to cover all expenses. These are NJ boarding schools.

The top NYC private schools are more expensive (42k+ other expenses) give financial aid packages quite liberally. Chances are you qualify for something even with quarter a mil a year income. There will still be 10~20k that you need to cover but that pretty much makes 80~100k the sweet spot for starting to think about applying to such schools, lower if you have a particularly bright kid (basically 98+ percentile on SHSAT) that can ask for more generous aid package.

Bear in mind I am talking about top schools with endowments and ability to disburse financial aid. Second tier schools (unless religiously affiliated) won't be so affordable.

PS: I have lived in NYC and its surrounding suburbs for 20+ years. I know the prices around here, both on the high end and low end. Riverman is confusing "Manhattan" with "NYC".

EDIT: Horace Mann, one of the top schools in NYC with its financial aid disbursement profiles:
http://www.horacemann.org/uploaded/H...A_Slides_1.pdf
http://www.horacemann.org/uploaded/H.../FA_Slides.pdf
http://www.horacemann.org/uploaded/H...1_original.pdf

And that living better than the vast majority of people in your city live isn't relevant to your social status. Instead, the relevant metric is to compare the square footage and acreage of one's housing arrangement to that of someone in a very different place where not as many people want to live.

I have lived in NYC for 20 years as well. What you say is mostly correct. No matter what they say, there is a widespread perception that private schools (at least in manhattan and expensive areas of Brooklyn) do not admit students on a need blind basis. So I do not agree that $100k is the "sweet spot" for sending your kid to private school. Also, even if you do get aid, you likely will be asked to contribute an amount that will make saving very difficult. Needless to say, that's not optimal life planning.

I don't think we disagree much. I think you missed the "thinking" part.

What actually happens, and I watched this play out with my brothers, is they "admit" on need blind basis but something funky begins to happen with financial aid. Smarter (and, pardon me on this one, blacker/browner) kids get more due to limited resources. Put differently, they do their best to limit the impact of the wealth/income filter but to the extent they have limited resources, they try to get the smartest (most athletic too, for some schools) kids they can with the money they got. They also prefer students with family that attended the school in past, reinforcing an old wealth cycle.*

80~100k, if your kid's doing well, it's probably a good idea to get him to take the SHSAT's and start looking at admission process to schools like Xavier, Horace Mann, better boarding schools in the area, and the magnet schools. You will have tough time saving during the 4 high school years (and the 4 college years after) but it's incredibly +EV for the kid.

*this means if you are only have one genius kid, hope it's the oldest because the younger ones can ride on his/her coat tails into top schools.