lol. Once again, living in the NYC/NJ area is not some cross you have to bear, and it doesn't make your life worse. Someone living in *gasp* an apartment in the NYC area will have better access to superior entertainment and dining options, more dynamic career options, and better opportunities for their children than someone living in a house in East Bumble****, KY, even if they have the same take home pay. Dare I say, people in NYC are generally in better life situations than those in East Bumble****, KY, even if houses in East Bumble****, KY cost less money. There's a reason why they cost less money!



If you prefer to own a big house rather than enjoy NYC's unique metropolitan opportunities, then **** bro, go buy a house somewhere else and get a job there. Oh, all the best job opportunities in your chosen profession are all centered in NYC? It just so happens that there's a reason for that! Go work as a coal miner in KY if you'd rather. Choosing your life's work to be in your favorite profession is also something that may cost you. But don't complain about how bad you have it when you get to live in a place that a whole lot of people think is a way more awesome place to live than anywhere else in the country.

Both making 120k is a world different than 120k combined. They may not be in the nicest development but even in NJ or CT if they're not dumb with their money they're driving a nice cars, can join a country club, are paying for their kids college, have big 401ks, and are going overseas on vacation every few years.

Yeah that is just wrong in suburban NYC. I know tons of people in the 200-300k combined category and just no. Keep in mind you basically must go 6 figures into debt to get the necessary credentials in many fields. Will they eventually be relatively wealthy, like when they are 50? Probably - bootstrapping home equity helps a ton. But you are wildly underestimating the cost of living in desirable NYC area neighborhoods. As Wookie points out though, it is definitely a choice.

Everything is a choice but it can also be a burden. Some people value living in the greater NYC area but a lot of people have to live there for their work. It's not like they can move to Louisville and make the same amount of money. The jobs in NYC generally pay more.

Yeah I meant $120k for both parents combined, bad writing on my part.

I don't get your point. I agree that larger cities with higher costs of living are generally more desirable places to live. So what?

Unless you are one of the literally millions of impoverished New Yorkers, of course. Then perhaps it isn't such a desirable place to live but you can't afford to go elsewhere.

re-posting my previous thoughts on the "but cost of living!" argument.

Wookie should tell them that their hour each way commute from their ****ty overpriced apartment is a lifestyle choice IMO

As nich notes, there may be some element of paying for income in some of these expenditures (this is probably more true in SF because of terrible zoning policies), but there's so much absurd whining about things that are clearly consumption items that it's hard to tell.

Is New York actually a bad place to be poor? Comprehensive mass transit is a pretty big plus. Certainly there are a lot of immigrant communities in NYC, which would be odd if the only reason poor people were there is if they couldn't afford to leave.

Nichlemm's proposed way of thinking about cost of living is good. I personally think that a large part of the cost of living in NYC is paying for income.

The overall debate about who is rich is ridiculous and highly semantic. Each poster is defining "rich" in a different way, which completely pollutes the debate.

Food and shelter are not discretionary purchases.

I don't know, maybe people think your average NYer spends every night eating at Union Square Cafe and going to the Metropolitan Opera. I guess the wealthy in Manhattan might. A typical Metro NY family that makes $120k lives in a middle-class suburb, commutes an hour or more to work, and has little to do with all the awesome amenities of NYC otherwise.

Immigrant communities exist primarily because people who are new to this country want to settle around people like them. It's not about objectively choosing the best location to move to (maybe for the first immigrants of a group it is, though).

Food and rent in NYC are both much more expensive than anywhere else and if you are fortunate enough to get some kind of public housing, it's likely dilapidated and disgusting. Just because you can take the subway (still $120 a month per person) doesn't make NYC easy on poor people. This isn't even getting into the job market, which is still pretty bad on the low end.

In single parent households, or households where both parents work, childcare also is not discretionary, and it is very expensive in NYC.

This post reflects a real misunderstanding of why first generation immigrants tend to settle in large cities.

NYC public housing is anything but dilapidated and disgusting. They've changed the program to tax breaks for buildings allowing public assistance money. Combined with gentrification pushing into previously shady neighborhoods and stricter tenant laws, public housing is not what it used to be. They are some of the nicest units you can get for 4~6k a month (without assistance) in NYC. I am sure some are still disgusting carried over from decades ago but it's no longer the norm.

And public transport for $120 a month (there is assistance for this too) is actually a really big deal. It makes the commute shorter, gives them access to more jobs, and saves money on the car.

Cheap food is also abundant. You might frown upon fast food but it's actually a very cheap source of calories. With some supplements and counting, it's not that hard to get all the nutrients you need for less than $10, $20 if you don't want to order off the dollar menu, a day (I learned this the hard way when I was on a diet).

It's also one of the best places to get a college degree while still working full time. There are multiple colleges (community, city, private, too many too count) in every county of NYC. This presents upward mobility opportunities that few other areas in the country possess.

I would much rather be poor in NYC than Bum****Nowhere. Way, way easier to become not poor there.

Except the typical (median) nyc household makes about 57k and is probably as far from the lifestyle of that 120k house you describe as that household is from the wealthy Manhattanite.

Especially NYC.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat19.pdf

24% of the USA #1 workforce is part time. ~5% are part time for economic reasons.

What? How many project buildings have you been in? They are by and large disgusting and haven't been renovated in decades. This is such a huge problem it was one of the main topics in last year's election.

http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/...ue-the-nations

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/09...referrer=&_r=0

I'm on my phone so I can't link more. The estimated money needed to fix all of these problems is in the billions. All of this is ignoring that there isn't enough public housing in the first place. Hundreds of thousands of people eligible can't live in these ****ty buildings simply because there is no room.

Suggesting people can subsist on fast food is also ridiculous.

The $120 for the subway is still a lot to come up with per month for someone making minimum wage.

I get this, but if NYC were a horrible place to live as a poor person, you would expect some alternative diaspora destinations to develop over time, at least for the larger migrant ethnicities.

It sucks being poor everywhere. The original contention was that somehow being poor in NYC was better than being poor anywhere else and that's just simply not true. Falcon actually does make a good point that there is probably more upward mobility in NYC for poor people than most places. Doesn't mean life is easier.

I guarantee you I would rather be poor in NYC than some meth-ridden **** hole in the California desert or Appalachian mountains. At least NYC has enough going on to keep you entertained. Those other places are so depressing if you made me live there I would probably become an alcoholic or methhead just as an escape. I don't think it's all genetic that a lot of Russians are alcoholics.