I go back and forth a lot but at the moment I think Clovis is right. Thread is pretty derailed between attacks on him and wasting time talking to or about Chez. I generally enjoy Fly’s posting but I always have to skim to get around his Chez rants (and chez posts in general).

White supremacists think they're under attack.

You win by showing them that they aren't, not by doing what they're saying you're doing.

So Trump is ignoring the Russia sanctions. He has to implement them eventually right?

Fly, the problem is not your vulgarity. It is your insistence on attacking the arguer.


Not only are there forum rules against it (lolmods notwithstanding), but you prevent yourself from making headway with people by constantly dragging them down and pushing them away.

Why wouldn’t you keep attacking them till they are gone again? They should be under attack, from everyone, too bad calling them racist got Trump elected though...

Conspiring is acting

inchoate crime is not thought crime

wtf are you talking about? i am all for attacking their view that they should be entitled to more than non-whites, and so should anybody with a modicum of decency. that doesnt mean that i'm for attacking white people as a whole tho, and i demonstrate this with my support for more forms of various govt welfare in ****holes like west virginia, for example.

conspiring is "acting" in the same way that expressing an idea is acting

saying "i'm going to kill the president/my wife/my boss" is against the law and requires no tangible action other than expressing the sentiment.

I'm gonna add some bottom
So that the dancers just won't hide
You might like to hear my organ
I said ride Sally ride

Dance to the music!

Yes. The difference will be the precedent to legally act on it.
Saying that speech is protected by the first amendment is not sitting around actively promoting their right to march. That right exists and predates us. The discussion is about the value vs consequences of curbing that right.
I just don't agree that this is true on its face. This **** exists and these people are not going to be switched off by being silenced in public.

Question for the hate speech ban advocates. Take out the slippery slope. What does this law even look like and how does it get passed in the current climate. What's the level of effort? How is it worded so that an unprecedented change to the first amendment like this produces a result where Nazi sympathizers or self proclaimed supremacy groups are now banned from assembly? Like, what if they just are more careful about dog whistles? Who determines the line? As someone else mentioned, what's the punishment? How much energy goes into arguing with these mouth breathers, who not the movers and shakers of the movement anyway, battling them in courts, giving them news coverage of those battles...

Do their rallies really give them that much traction anyway? This seems like a massive misuse of effort as an idea. Even discussing it is reducing focus on things that will actually matter more, and that's before you factor the potential (assured) unintended consequences.

What if I insist on treating black people as people, and by insisting on that, it is sufficient to convince white supremacists that they are under attack, because what they want is better status than black people and to be allowed to treat them as not people?

Again? When did the violence racists leave?

You want to drive them back underground, under the hood, so you don't have to see it on display. That's not victory.

Lol, holy **** this guy.

ya tedious is great word to describe how chez writes. it really is a bizarre way to communicate. at first I thought he was really smart and using some advanced sentence structure or something. now I just skip most of his posts.

Says who?

I'm inclined to disagree. I don't think either of us have any studies to cite, but if you look at something like the collapse of the KKK I think it was more the result of ridicule and humiliation than positive encouragement.

And generally shrinking white supremacy depends more on young people seeing that it's shameful when they are forming their ideology than on convincing Archie Bunker to vote differently.

Let's hear them admit that and see how far it gets them.

yes, I want to drive them back underground so that they are less able to influence others and perpetuate their ideas. and so that they are no longer in positions of power like attorney general or president or cabinet.

Uh, have you been paying attention? They have admitted it. The president has admitted it!

You should already be exiled from politics for all the concern trolling you do. You didn't come here to argue in good faith. Now piss off with this whiny bull****.

Exactly. I'm happy, even eager, to be engaged on the debate. I find that the valuble part of the thread. I actually love to be proven wrong and generally conceed when it happens, as I did with noodle last night. Perhaps I'm too slow to do so sometimes.

What I find tiresome and not worthy of our side is the personal attacks, mob mentally and constant relitigation of past events. If chez or I are as monumentally stupid as FLY seems to believe address our arguments. They should be very easy to refute.

I also think there is a dangerous tendency itt sometimes (to which I am guilty as well) at not allowing even the tiniest shred of dissent or disagreement with the group consensus. I would guess my views align something like 95% with most people itt, even fly. Yet some attack me like I'm some kind of trumpkin for wavering slightly from group consensus. This does not foster healthy debate where we can all learn from each other.

Lastly, every debate is not a derail. Discussions of free speech boundaries could not be more core to Trumps presidency.

Pussy grabber in chief gets standing ovations from religious conservatives after he just took action to reduce access to health care from millions of Americans.
Religious conservatives are a joke, the whole lot are mean greedy piece of trash hypocrites. Trump is not the problem, he is just a symptom of the disease that is American conservatism!

Does Trump think there's an actual ban on saying "Merry Christmas"?

Only a matter of time before he starts seeing the little bald doctors

Lol what? A group is deluded in thinking they are being persecuted so you cave into their delusions?

Christians think they are being persecuted because abortion is legal in our country. Better end that practice so they don't feel they are being persecuted anymore!

Idiots who feel they are being persecuted when they aren't will always think that no matter what concessions you give. If it's not one thing persecuting them, it's another.

Yes, nazis and skinheads NOT marching through towns openly but cowering in the shadows because they are afraid of losing their jobs and maybe a few teeth is ****ing winning.