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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

03-22-2017 , 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocratic
Is there a reason why this is the primary Dem talking point, rather than "Merrick Garland or GTFO"?
I think it's just Congressional pretext and nicety, just like the no Supreme Court Justice in an election year ( that morphed into the 8 seats is fine) was simply, "We want this seat". Everyone in the know, knows.
03-22-2017 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
How can they nominate a SCOTUS appointed by a President* under FBI investigation for possible treason? The confirmation hearings obviously must be delayed until the investigation is complete.
Agreed, Elizabeth Warren continues to be one of the only dems with a brain. She has been calling for this
03-22-2017 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocratic
Is there a reason why this is the primary Dem talking point, rather than "Merrick Garland or GTFO"?
There are a lot of good reasons to oppose Garland. Voting Rights is probably the most important. Merrick Garland is another good one. All good reasons. No way he should be confirmed under these conditions in particular though.
03-22-2017 , 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer
I think the Manafort stuff is a little overblown right now, it's the "smoking gun" the same way Flynn's contacts were.
Since there's no coherent theory of what the quid pro quo is, it's going to be hard for anyone to find a smoking gun short of a $100,000,000 check to Trump and a card wishing him well in the elections directly from Putin, and Trump responding with IOU: One Country.

I'm not relitating all of my posts but Democrats are going to be excited and then ultimately disappointed and forlorn nothing is happening with each of these dramatic breaking news developments partly of course because the GOP controls all the power. But also because the smoking gun allusion assumes a dead body and Democrats aren't really arguing a murder took place yet.
03-22-2017 , 12:41 PM
From July 2016:
Why Donald Trump Picked Mike Pence as Running Mate
http://time.com/4406477/donald-trump...ice-president/
Quote:
If the pick is an olive branch to the party he’s crashed, it’s also a rare case of Trump going with safety over flash and guidance over gut instinct. Campaign chairman Paul Manafort led a cadre of allies, including senior Trump adviser Kellyanne Conway, in pushing for Pence, whom Trump did not know nearly as well as the other members of his vice-presidential short list, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie.
03-22-2017 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namath12
Yeah it's a good talking point but it shouldn't be the main one. I guess they've resigned themselves to the fact that the Garland talk is getting them to the same place it got them pre-election ie nowhere.
And this works? IMO this investigation **** is designed to further their overall narrative that Trump is like, compromised. But the Garland thing makes way more sense, and it's weird that they'd abandon it.

Like, what is the argument again? Maybe Trump committed treason so his nominee is invalid? What if he's ****ing impeached and Pence nominates someone? It's just a strange approach.
03-22-2017 , 12:45 PM
I'm wondering just how long Spicer is going to stay on the job. It has to be more impossible for him to manage every day.
03-22-2017 , 12:47 PM
The Smoking Gun hasn't been found. In this theory of everything fitting together, the smoking gun is that Trump (or Trump Organization) has massive debts to Russian Banks/Private Financiers, and wants them to be on more stable financial footing so he can finance debt for the Trump Organization. Reducing the Economic Sanctions does wonders for this.

This is going to be very tough to find, but I think that's the "missing link" that leads to actual consequences.
03-22-2017 , 12:48 PM
Being paid millions of dollars apparently "incoherent" as a motivation for people.
03-22-2017 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocratic
Like, what is the argument again? Maybe Trump committed treason so his nominee is invalid? What if he's ****ing impeached and Pence nominates someone? It's just a strange approach.
I've obviously beaten this horse to death that the Democrats' strategy on this makes no sense. But whatever.

It reminds me though of something I wanted to say but haven't yet. And that is: if Comey arrested Trump tomorrow for treason and Pence was sworn in, I would bet every available dollar I could find that the Democrats would SNAP confirm Gorsuch, unanimously, and likely approve the GOP alternative to Obamacare to sew up their bipartisan bonafides and prove that with Trump gone, we really all need to come together and heal and show America how we all can reach across the aisle and compromise and we really respect the democratic norms of doing whatever the GOP wants. It could be no other way.
03-22-2017 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocratic
I've posted about this, possibly in this thread. Trump and his people are not agents of Russia in the sense that their primary motivation is furthering Russian interests. That seems to be the standard liberal line on this situation, and it's incoherent nonsense. These people aren't aligning with Russia, they are aligning with capital that happens to be in Russia.
There's not much difference between the interest of the government and capital in the US and less difference in Russia.
03-22-2017 , 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sighsalot
I disagree respectfully. I would wager manafort is under investigation by the fbi as we speak. What is now coming out appears to be proof acquired by AP which shows he is a Russian puppet.
It could also simply be proof that he advised the Putin government 12 years ago and nothing more.
03-22-2017 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
There's not much difference between the interest of the government and capital in the US and less difference in Russia.
But that's sort of the point. Patriotism, and to some extent countries in general, are for the rest of us. The capitalist elite don't have to abide by borders or pay much mind to the geopolitics of nation states.
03-22-2017 , 12:54 PM
@goofy..sure, but that would be an ultra simplistic way of looking at the crime scene.
03-22-2017 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocratic
But that's sort of the point. Patriotism, and to some extent countries in general, are for the rest of us. The capitalist elite don't have to abide by borders or pay much mind to the geopolitics of nation states.
This should be clarified that they pay very close attention to it and are all deeply aware of its existence. Trump's whole Make America Great Again schtick is proof of that of course. They just don't feel any of it sincerely. That's for rubes. The Miller Lite marketing executive who came up with Tastes Great Less Filling almost surely went home that night and had a glass of red wine and would probably rather drink his own piss than Miller Lite but that doesn't mean he doesn't pay attention to branding and taglines.
03-22-2017 , 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namath12
In case you missed it this morning, Morning Joe was playing this exchange between Paul Manafort and CBS on loop. Look at this lolworthy response when asked whether Trump has any financial relationships with Russian oligarchs.

Skip to 2:00

See if you can spot the lie

Posted this several weeks back. Skip to 2:00 and tell me this is a man who has something to hide!
03-22-2017 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sighsalot
@goofy..sure, but that would be an ultra simplistic way of looking at the crime scene.
But more importantly, it's a plausible way, which means this is not yet the "proof" or "smoking gun" you're looking for.
03-22-2017 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Since there's no coherent theory of what the quid pro quo is, it's going to be hard for anyone to find a smoking gun
Broadly speaking, I agreed with many of the points you made in your previous posts, but on this one question I have a nit to pick. I think it might be easier, in the cases you've mentioned where conservatives push a narrative, for them to construct that narrative then it is for liberals here. Basically my argument would be that in the cases you're using in comparison the narrative was the entire point from the beginning, there never was much there. Liberals don't have a coherent narrative in part because they aren't trying to construct one from some theory a priori, the story is just developing drip by drip from actual news.

So, I kind of agree that we should be thoughtful about what we do with the news and what we focus on politically, but it's not surprising that people react to news, and given the way the news is coming out in bits and pieces and minor developments, it's not surprising it's not as coherent as narratives invented purely for political purposes to begin with.
03-22-2017 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namath12
I actually did not know that Devin Nunes was part of Trump's transition team until today.

Not sure how the hell I missed that, but obviously if that's the case then the concept of Nunes sitting as the chair of the committee investigating this is ludicrous. Even if he's completely innocent he shouldn't be within 500 feet of this investigation.
me either, wtf is this kangaroo court ****
03-22-2017 , 01:01 PM
Agree with Dvaut.

As a politics messaging strategy, "GOP is cruel and incompetent" >>> "Russia something." Even if the Russia **** is true, the entire GOP congress gets off the hook!
03-22-2017 , 01:03 PM
Speaking of cruel and incompentent, the House is voting on AHCA tomorrow. Today would be a great day to call your Rep and tell them to vote NO on AHCA.

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

http://www.vox.com/2017/3/6/14829526...op-replacement
03-22-2017 , 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
How can they nominate a SCOTUS appointed by a President* under FBI investigation for possible treason? The confirmation hearings obviously must be delayed until the investigation is complete.
Filibustering with evil motives, especially a good candidate that has bipartisan support until Trump got elected and the left went crazy, is like the boy who cried the wolf too many times.
03-22-2017 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Speaking of cruel and incompentent, the House is voting on AHCA tomorrow. Today would be a great day to call your Rep and tell them to vote NO on AHCA.

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

http://www.vox.com/2017/3/6/14829526...op-replacement
This is probable something we can agree on, but with different motives.

Replacing one bad entitlement program with a lite version just doesn't cut it.
03-22-2017 , 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sighsalot
Agreed, Elizabeth Warren continues to be one of the only dems with a brain. She has been calling for this
This made me laugh. Trump calls her Pocahontas and goofy. If she is the last hope of democrats then I think it's just over.

It just tells you what kind of people might be supporting her.
03-22-2017 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kypreanus
Filibustering with evil motives, especially a good candidate that has bipartisan support until Trump got elected and the left went crazy, is like the boy who cried the wolf too many times.
I agree, they should confirm Garland

      
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