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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.
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02-19-2017 , 11:17 PM
#12051
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The failing @JudicialBranch
02-19-2017 , 11:18 PM
#12052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigt2k4
Based on precedent won`t this just be thrown out immediately by every court?
I sure hope so, the meltdown will be of epic proportions.
02-19-2017 , 11:27 PM
#12053
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Hopefully it's thrown out, Trump orders cops to not pay attention to it, even bigger protests and impeachment. We need Trump to go too far too fast and not let totalitarianism creep up on us.
02-19-2017 , 11:28 PM
#12054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigt2k4
Based on precedent won`t this just be thrown out immediately by every court?
Yea I don't understand how this administration thinks they can circumvent pending litigation by issuing almost a nearly identical EO. Fascinating and confusing times we live in.
02-19-2017 , 11:28 PM
#12055
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Trump has worst lawyers ever?
02-19-2017 , 11:28 PM
#12056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigt2k4
Based on precedent won`t this just be thrown out immediately by every court?
He appears to have removed the biggest problems with it: doesn't apply to permanent residents or people who already have been issued visas, and on its face doesn't discriminate based on religion anymore (bans everyone from those countries not just muslims, as opposed to the previous version which had a preference for "minority religions."). Unfortunately this version is far more likely to survive judicial review. Elections have consequences and all that.
02-19-2017 , 11:28 PM
#12057
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Originally Posted by surfinillini
Yea I don't understand how this administration thinks they can circumvent pending litigation by issuing almost a nearly identical EO. Fascinating and confusing times we live in.
He's fixing the biggest problems the ninth circuit had with his order.
02-19-2017 , 11:30 PM
#12058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
Trump has worst lawyers ever?
Lawyers? Who needs lawyers?

02-19-2017 , 11:30 PM
#12059
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Originally Posted by jman220
He's fixing the biggest problems the ninth circuit had with his order.
Also, his lawyers appear to be cleverly torpedoing some of the standing arguments the states used as well. By exempting green card holders, permanent residents and others who have already been granted permission to enter the country as of the date of the order the states lose the ability to assert standing based on damage to state universities from prohibition of entry by students already admitted and visiting professors already approved. It's actually maniacally clever.
02-19-2017 , 11:33 PM
#12060
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Wasn't the main argument the AG was the intent of the order being a muslim ban though? He seemed pretty confident that he could prove intent if the case was tried on it's merits. Wouldn't that still apply to the new order even if there is no mention of religion or religious preference? The intent will always be there right?

Edit: I guess you're right though, they would still need standing to even get the case into court in the first place.
02-19-2017 , 11:37 PM
#12061
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Originally Posted by uDevil
Lawyers? Who needs lawyers?
LOL.
02-19-2017 , 11:39 PM
#12062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuluck414
Wasn't the main argument the AG was the intent of the order being a muslim ban though? He seemed pretty confident that he could prove intent if the case was tried on it's merits. Wouldn't that still apply to the new order even if there is no mention of religion or religious preference? The intent will always be there right?

Edit: I guess you're right though, they would still need standing to even get the case into court in the first place.
As to your first point, yes, so it's not a completely lost cause, but it's more difficult with a much more neutrally worded order than the first version. Hard to say how this will eventually turn out, but the newly worded order is a much taller order to fight than the original order. He's making the much smarter play by tacitly admitting defeat and withdrawing the initial order and trying again versus trying to bring the original order stay decision to the supreme court where it almost certainly would have been upheld.
02-19-2017 , 11:42 PM
#12063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
Also, his lawyers appear to be cleverly torpedoing some of the standing arguments the states used as well. By exempting green card holders, permanent residents and others who have already been granted permission to enter the country as of the date of the order the states lose the ability to assert standing based on damage to state universities from prohibition of entry by students already admitted and visiting professors already approved. It's actually maniacally clever.
I think you're being generous with "cleverly". This is just basic, obvious **** they should have done the first time. If they wanted something anti-Muslim to stand. The idiotic first version getting challenged in court was the least surprising thing ever.

I guess if he was planning on ignoring the court ruling, then first version would have been fine. I'll admit, for a while I thought he was going to take that line, but thankfully he didn't go full dictator.
02-19-2017 , 11:45 PM
#12064
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Ladies and gentlemen, your CPAC Keynote Speaker Milo Yabbadabbadopoulis....NSFL
02-19-2017 , 11:48 PM
#12065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuluck414
Wasn't the main argument the AG was the intent of the order being a muslim ban though? He seemed pretty confident that he could prove intent if the case was tried on it's merits. Wouldn't that still apply to the new order even if there is no mention of religion or religious preference? The intent will always be there right?

Edit: I guess you're right though, they would still need standing to even get the case into court in the first place.
I think you can still get standing if you find someone who is an American Citizen or permanent resident who's family now can't come to visit them because of the order, and they sue. There's caselaw on that if I recall. Also there is still an argument that the states could have standing based on religious discrimination being the type of thing that "harms everyone." Just not as clear cut. Edit: in the first case the states could argue parens patriae but that probably doesn't work so you probably need someone like the ACLU finding and then representing someone who's family couldn't come in to visit.
02-19-2017 , 11:51 PM
#12066
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so the other guy who drew that russia sanction thing up

is named Felix Sater

ofc he's russian born but he's been in america awhile

you wouldn't guess who is dad is

an underboss to Semyon *******ich, the current head mafia boss in the entire world

Just a coincidence that all of trump's pals are russian agents or mob guys though I'm sure.
Last edited by wheatrich; 02-19-2017 at 11:56 PM.
02-19-2017 , 11:52 PM
#12067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Ladies and gentlemen, your CPAC Keynote Speaker Milo Yabbadabbadopoulis....NSFL
I have a 13 year old daughter. Not going to click play on that thing. The seething anger I have atm... Just die, please.
02-19-2017 , 11:54 PM
#12068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
I think you can still get standing if you find someone who is an American Citizen or permanent resident who's family now can't come to visit them because of the order, and they sue. There's caselaw on that if I recall. Also there is still an argument that the states could have standing based on religious discrimination being the type of thing that "harms everyone." Just not as clear cut. Edit: in the first case the states could argue parens patriae but that probably doesn't work so you probably need someone like the ACLU finding and then representing someone who's family couldn't come in to visit.
That makes me feel a little better. Guess I'll up my monthly ACLU donation.
02-19-2017 , 11:56 PM
#12069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatrich
so the other guy who drew that russia sanction thing up

is named Felix Sater

ofc he's russian born but he's been in america awhile

you wouldn't guess who is dad is

an underboss to Semyon *******ich, the current head mafia boss in the entire world

Just a coincidence that all of trump's pals are russian agents or mob guys though I'm sure.
HUGE IF TRUE lol wtf is happening
02-19-2017 , 11:56 PM
#12070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
I have a 13 year old daughter. Not going to click play on that thing. The seething anger I have atm... Just die, please.
oh dont worry hes talking about boys discovering themselves with men...

sigh
02-19-2017 , 11:58 PM
#12071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbynator
oh dont worry hes talking about boys discovering themselves with men...

sigh
didn't trump write off several donations to nambla on his tax returns? i remember reading a lot of people talking about that, and i'm sure many are still talking about it today
02-20-2017 , 12:00 AM
#12072
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02-20-2017 , 12:05 AM
#12073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatrich
so the other guy who drew that russia sanction thing up

is named Felix Sater

ofc he's russian born but he's been in america awhile

you wouldn't guess who is dad is

an underboss to Semyon *******ich, the current head mafia boss in the entire world

Just a coincidence that all of trump's pals are russian agents or mob guys though I'm sure.
Like half the trump properties would be empty if not for mob dudes, and the places that have been put up for sale lately because they are empty (Toronto and one other) is because organized crime backed out.
02-20-2017 , 12:15 AM
#12074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
Also, his lawyers appear to be cleverly torpedoing some of the standing arguments the states used as well. By exempting green card holders, permanent residents and others who have already been granted permission to enter the country as of the date of the order the states lose the ability to assert standing based on damage to state universities from prohibition of entry by students already admitted and visiting professors already approved. It's actually maniacally clever.
I didn't read the arguments against by the court or anything, but didn't exempting Christians (whether or not explicitly stated) have something to do with deciding against the EO?
02-20-2017 , 12:19 AM
#12075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
I didn't read the arguments against by the court or anything, but didn't exempting Christians (whether or not explicitly stated) have something to do with deciding against the EO?
Yes, and from what I heard listening to CNN earlier the new draft of the EO no longer explicitly exempts "minority religions" from the 7 countries (meaning christians).
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