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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

02-18-2017 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatkid
I’d like to pushback a little bit on the idea that McCain et. al are not really opposing Trump. They are opposing him just in a super secret I'm a spineless ****ing coward sort of way. They will wait for the exact moment the car is going to to off the cliff then yell WAIT! They saw the car crash from 10 mikes out. **** em.
I think that's what we're all saying. When trump has 40% approval they'll just do it privately. When it's 25% it will be everywhere.
02-18-2017 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
No, even when those people are completely wrong headed. Debates, especially those when one side is so obviously correct, are won when the idiotic side gets to speak and be shown for what they are.
This hinges on the assumption that everyone ultimately responds in the same way to the same things. Fascists and their apologists may be evil, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. We have no reason to assume that their desire for mainstream exposure undermines their aims unbeknownst to them. Absent some powerful case to that effect, we should assume that they are entirely correct in pursuing it - that it's good for them and good for their goals.

The left has seriously got to shake off this ****ing West Wing **** where Principled Debate will Win The Day if you just, like, debate hard enough or craft just the right gotcha or whatever. Like when Pence went to Hamilton and the cast did that stupid We hope, Mr Vice-President-Elect, that our hip-hop-infused musico-historical comedy has INSPIRED you to blah blah blah. One look at Mike Pence and you know the only thing that's ever inspired him is dashcam footage of a queerbashing.

Milo Hanrahan-Hanrahan has a blog and a podcast and a whatever the **** else. His free speech - even in the most liberal interpretation of 'free speech' possible, where boycotts and the like represent incursion on it - is not affected by refusing to have him on a popular TV show. Anyone who's curious can find out what he thinks. Anyone susceptible to his message will not be insulated by the presence of a Principled Debater. 'Oppose whatever reactionaries are seeking' is a good enough rule of thumb here.
02-18-2017 , 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
We need ways to get people on both sides out of thier bubbles. Maher has Milo on for 10 minutes then spends 50 minutes trashing Trump. You don't think some of Milos fans are going to be watching for the first time and may be exposed to ideas and facts that don't breech thier normal bubble?

This is one of the ways we win in the arc of history.
I don't mind having different viewpoints represented, I really don't. My problem with Milo in particular is that his viewpoint seems to be that of a troll--there is no substance to fight against, because he just always deflects to something else. It's like having KellyAnne Conway on for an interview. Sure, people will tune in to watch--but will the viewers really learn anything? At the end of the day Maher is a much bigger media fish than Milo and he's giving him a big platform.
02-18-2017 , 04:10 PM
How are we going to get it to 25%?
02-18-2017 , 04:10 PM
That is a very good post Flynn.
02-18-2017 , 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
How do you feel that Islam and other religions are fundamentally different? Especially when you say yourself that all religions are poisonous. Isn't terrorism committed all the time in the name of Christianity? And yet we don't seem to link that terrorism to the religion in the same way as a society.
Of course many religions condone violence, including Christianity. I'm against all religion.

My point is simple and completely obvious. If you rank all religions on some kind of scale, like women's rights, homophobia, freedom of expression, it's clear they are not all equal.

One would be hard pressed to argue Islam is better than Buddhism in terms of homophobia.

Islam's general tenants are far more socially regressive than other major religions.
02-18-2017 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by All-In Flynn
This hinges on the assumption that everyone ultimately responds in the same way to the same things. Fascists and their apologists may be evil, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. We have no reason to assume that their desire for mainstream exposure undermines their aims unbeknownst to them. Absent some powerful case to that effect, we should assume that they are entirely correct in pursuing it - that it's good for them and good for their goals.

The left has seriously got to shake off this ****ing West Wing **** where Principled Debate will Win The Day if you just, like, debate hard enough or craft just the right gotcha or whatever. Like when Pence went to Hamilton and the cast did that stupid We hope, Mr Vice-President-Elect, that our hip-hop-infused musico-historical comedy has INSPIRED you to blah blah blah. One look at Mike Pence and you know the only thing that's ever inspired him is dashcam footage of a queerbashing.

Milo Hanrahan-Hanrahan has a blog and a podcast and a whatever the **** else. His free speech - even in the most liberal interpretation of 'free speech' possible, where boycotts and the like represent incursion on it - is not affected by refusing to have him on a popular TV show. Anyone who's curious can find out what he thinks. Anyone susceptible to his message will not be insulated by the presence of a Principled Debater. 'Oppose whatever reactionaries are seeking' is a good enough rule of thumb here.
Yeah this is a better response than mine and we should all study it.
02-18-2017 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoeba
How are we going to get it to 25%?
Continued protest combined with continued incompetence from trump. No one wants to work with him. He can't hire for the executive. It is dangerously understaffed. Trump still hasn't resigned from his company, despite stating he did. His policies aren't popular. Showing that they won't work will get him down below 35% by 2018 I'm sure. 25% is doable.
02-18-2017 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
I think that's what we're all saying. When trump has 40% approval they'll just do it privately. When it's 25% it will be everywhere.
Ok. Bottom line for me is they own his Orange ass for life. Never TRUMPERS get a pass, everyone else has the stench in them forever.

I think the over/under line is 30%

Last edited by fatkid; 02-18-2017 at 04:21 PM.
02-18-2017 , 04:14 PM
North Carolina needed 6,500 farm workers. Only 7 Americans stuck it out.

Quote:
That willingness, he finds, is basically nonexistent. Every year from 1998 to 2012, at least 130,000 North Carolinians were unemployed. Of those, the number who asked to be referred to NCGA was never above 268 (and that number was only reached in 2011, when 489,095 North Carolinians were unemployed). The share of unemployed asking for referrals never breached 0.09 percent.

When native unemployed people are referred to NCGA, they're almost without exception hired; between 1998 and 2011, 97 percent of referred applicants were hired. But they don't tend to last. In 2011, 245 people were hired out of 268 referred, but only 163 (66.5 percent) of the hired applicants actually showed up to the first day of work. Worse, only seven lasted to the end of the growing season
02-18-2017 , 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
That's absurd and borders on some kind of hero worship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...olars_of_Islam

I don't see Harris on that list and I guarantee he's not qualified to be on it.
Surely you are not posting a Wikipedia list as refutation of my claim. Have you read his books or listened to his podcasts.

He is not ignorant of Islam by any definition.
02-18-2017 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatkid
Ok. Bottom line for me is they own his Orange ass for life. Never TRUMPERS get a pass everyone else has the stench in them forever.
It should be a scarlet letter. It won't be unless it gets to an actual war, likely with use of nukes. Just hiring the most incompetent leader in the history of democratic elections somehow isn't enough.
02-18-2017 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
Of course many religions condone violence, including Christianity. I'm against all religion.

My point is simple and completely obvious. If you rank all religions on some kind of scale, like women's rights, homophobia, freedom of expression, it's clear they are not all equal.

One would be hard pressed to argue Islam is better than Buddhism in terms of homophobia.

Islam's general tenants are far more socially regressive than other major religions.
So which mosque/university did you study at to come to these conclusions? Because from what I know which comes from meeting and talking to real people, this is based on a whole lot of nothing.
02-18-2017 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
Surely you are not posting a Wikipedia list as refutation of my claim. Have you read his books or listened to his podcasts.

He is not ignorant of Islam by any definition.
You used a specific term, you have to own the words you use.
02-18-2017 , 04:17 PM
I'll give you a big hint before we dive in too deep: you might not want to assume you know the teachings of Christianity by looking at the actions of the Ku Klux Klan.
02-18-2017 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
I don't mind having different viewpoints represented, I really don't. My problem with Milo in particular is that his viewpoint seems to be that of a troll--there is no substance to fight against, because he just always deflects to something else. It's like having KellyAnne Conway on for an interview. Sure, people will tune in to watch--but will the viewers really learn anything? At the end of the day Maher is a much bigger media fish than Milo and he's giving him a big platform.
That's a fair point. I agree there was little substance to his appearance.
02-18-2017 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
Surely you are not posting a Wikipedia list as refutation of my claim. Have you read his books or listened to his podcasts.

He is not ignorant of Islam by any definition.
Your claim wasn't that he's not ignorant it was that he's a world class scholar on Islam. Retract that claim.

I sure as **** never said he was ignorant.
02-18-2017 , 04:20 PM
Guess Trump didn't **** up that badly today.

You guys are talking about Bill Maher itt
02-18-2017 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
You used a specific term, you have to own the words you use.
He has written tens of thousands of words on Islam. We can quibble about "world class". Perhaps I was being a tad hyperbolic but my point holds. He is not ignorant of Islam.
02-18-2017 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
He has written tens of thousands of words on Islam. We can quibble about "world class". Perhaps I was being a tad hyperbolic but my point holds. He is not ignorant of Islam.
Don't quibble about it, retract it. It's ****ing ridiculous to call him a world class scholar on Islam.
02-18-2017 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob
Guess Trump didn't **** up that badly today.

You guys are talking about Bill Maher itt
He probably shot like 120, but I could probably only beat that by 12.
02-18-2017 , 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
So which mosque/university did you study at to come to these conclusions? Because from what I know which comes from meeting and talking to real people, this is based on a whole lot of nothing.
What does my religious training have to do with my claim?

Is your position that the People's Temple, Branch Davidians, Unitarianism, and Catholism are morally equivalent?
02-18-2017 , 04:25 PM
When does this damn rally start?
02-18-2017 , 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
Continued protest combined with continued incompetence from trump. No one wants to work with him. He can't hire for the executive. It is dangerously understaffed. Trump still hasn't resigned from his company, despite stating he did. His policies aren't popular. Showing that they won't work will get him down below 35% by 2018 I'm sure. 25% is doable.
So my problem with this is that to get to even 35%, you need some republicans to change their minds.Protests have been going on since the republican primaries and that didnt stop him from becoming president. If protests can't even persuade a republican to vote for a moderate within his ownparty like Kasich, what chance do you have of getting that same person to go against the President he voted for? The people you need to get to 25% dont really care about protests.

I do agree that incompetence will change minds which is why i suggest strategies for highlighting incompetence. What Trump is good at is manipulating media. Why attack him at his strong suit? Instead, let him trip over his own ego.

One of the keys to persuasion is to convince the other person that it was their idea all along.
02-18-2017 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99
When does this damn rally start?
5pm ET I thnk.

      
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