The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. - Page 456 - Politics and Economics

Two Plus Two Forums Other Topics Politics

The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

...

Page 456 of 5382

First

256 356 406 436 446 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 466 476 506 556 656 956 1456

Last

Page 456 of 5382

First

256 356 406 436 446 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 466 476 506 556 656 956 1456

Last

02-18-2017 , 03:53 PM

#11376

einbert

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 14,911

Quote:

As far as I'm concerned on the Milo/Berkeley issue, him being allowed to speak and protesters shutting it down is the perfect solution. That's a lot of freedom.

Shutting down a speaking engagement by use of a powerful overwhelming protest does not take away anybody's freedom of speech.

02-18-2017 , 03:53 PM

#11377

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Not every single word they say is wrong, but generally they are wrong.

Did you watch the episode of Maher? He had Leah Remini on to talk about her series on Scientology. Would you agree that religion is so clearly poison. The only difference between that position and the argument against Islam is that the latter has more adherents.

As they say they only difference between an atheist and a religious person is the religious person says every god ever created is false except one. The atheist takes it one god further.

02-18-2017 , 03:54 PM

#11378

aoFrantic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 25,218

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

Should people be trying to stop idiots who want to protest Milo from speaking?

People try to stop Milo from speaking at universities because he is an abhorrent person who outs LGBT/illegal immigrant students without their knowledge in addition to the usual alt right stuff. Why should this be tolerated and given a venue? He was banned on Twitter for repeatedly doing similar things as well. He is just a troll. Giving them platforms is exactly what they want. They should be ostracized to the fringes of society.

02-18-2017 , 03:55 PM

#11379

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoeba

All fundamentalism and extremism is poison, including atheism. This is coming from an atheist.

I'm not criticizing Maher here because I think Islam is correct or anything. Being a dogmatic atheist is akin to dogmatically believing in gravity. If we discover some day that the known universe is being twirled around on a string by God and gravity is an illusion we can still change our minds on both.

The problem with Maher, Hitchens and Harris comes in how they treat Islam differently than other religions.

02-18-2017 , 03:56 PM

#11380

einbert

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 14,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoFrantic

People try to stop Milo from speaking at universities because he is an abhorrent person who outs LGBT/illegal immigrant students without their knowledge in addition to the usual alt right stuff. Why should this be tolerated and given a venue? He was banned for Twitter for repeatedly doing similar things as well. He is just a troll. Giving them platforms is exactly what they want. They should be ostracized to the fringes of society.

Exactly. And to do so doesn't take away his freedom of speech.

02-18-2017 , 03:57 PM

#11381

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

No, even when those people are completely wrong headed. Debates, especially those when one side is so obviously correct, are won when the idiotic side gets to speak and be shown for what they are.

We just had two years of debates culminating in the election of Donald Trump.

02-18-2017 , 03:58 PM

#11382

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

The problem with Maher, Hitchens and Harris comes in how they treat Islam differently than other religions.

It is objectively different. You must concede some religious are worse than others? Once you make this concession you can't critique Hitchens genealogy position. You can of course argue they are wrong on thier ranking of bad religions.

02-18-2017 , 03:59 PM

#11383

einbert

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 14,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

Now we're getting into the other big problem with those three guys, which is that they often argue from a point of ignorance. Spend more time learning about Islam and less time criticizing it ignorantly is what I would say to someone like Maher.

02-18-2017 , 03:59 PM

#11384

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

We just had two years of debates culminating in the election of Donald Trump.

Your historic lens is focussed to too narrowly. We lost the election but will certainly win in the arc of history.

02-18-2017 , 04:00 PM

#11385

aoFrantic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 25,218

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

Exactly. And to do so doesn't take away his freedom of speech.

Nearly the entire "political" history of Milo is just targeted harassment of minorities. Again, give me one good argument as to why places should host a venue when his only goal is to harass and intimidate others while cultivating his brand?

02-18-2017 , 04:00 PM

#11386

hornbug

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 657

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoeba

Wait, you think Tomi was railroaded when she was on? Lol. Nobody spoke over her. She just didnt have any credible arguments.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point, you were talking about show formats. What I often see including on Maher's show and shows like the view and lots of cable shows is a panel containing 4 liberals and one conservative so that you don't really get to hear more than a few words before someone jumps in. A one on one like the Maher/Milo interview allows you to understand the points both people are making.

02-18-2017 , 04:00 PM

#11387

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 100,230

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

Interesting thread.

Thanks that is interesting and uplifting.

It also speaks to the larger issue that while arm-chair politics is fun - we really have no ****ing clue what goes on behind the scenes, which is like 99% of the action. We only know what they choose to send out to the media - through leaks or official channels. It's like looking through a periscope.

02-18-2017 , 04:01 PM

#11388

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

I can't speak for Maher but Harris is a world class scholar on Islam. By no definition is he arguing from ignorance.

02-18-2017 , 04:02 PM

#11389

einbert

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 14,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoFrantic

I never said they should. I think you and I agree on this issue. My entire argument is that private parties like universities (this gets complicated because some of them are public) SHOULDN'T invite him ever, and that isn't taking away any of his freedom of speech because there is no government intervention involved. A private party (Bill Maher/HBO, for example) has absolutely no obligation to have a person like Milo on whatsoever and they shouldn't.

02-18-2017 , 04:04 PM

#11390

einbert

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 14,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

I can't speak for Maher but Harris is a world class scholar on Islam. By no definition is he arguing from ignorance.

How do you feel that Islam and other religions are fundamentally different? Especially when you say yourself that all religions are poisonous. Isn't terrorism committed all the time in the name of Christianity? And yet we don't seem to link that terrorism to the religion in the same way as a society.

02-18-2017 , 04:04 PM

#11391

aoFrantic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 25,218

I'm agreeing with you just your quote was a good place to start my next post, it wasn't a refutation of anything of yours.

02-18-2017 , 04:04 PM

#11392

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

I'm not necessarily saying all religions have to be treated equally. Fundamentally I think people should be judged by their actions, not the precepts of religions which most people interpret in their own way. And it's very definitely harmful and counterproductive as far as getting your way (ostensibly liberalizing people) to insult the tenets of Islam.

But, I can foolishly get all SMPish as well and state the obvious that Christianity is worse than Islam.

02-18-2017 , 04:04 PM

#11393

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 100,230

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Woah there. Hitchens gave his unequivocal support to the invasion of Iraq. It's hard to see how that was right.

I like Harris, but he's basically a neo-con too. The *logic* he uses to arrive there is tortured to say the least.

02-18-2017 , 04:06 PM

#11394

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

We need ways to get people on both sides out of thier bubbles. Maher has Milo on for 10 minutes then spends 50 minutes trashing Trump. You don't think some of Milos fans are going to be watching for the first time and may be exposed to ideas and facts that don't breech thier normal bubble?

This is one of the ways we win in the arc of history.

02-18-2017 , 04:06 PM

#11395

aoFrantic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 25,218

I bought Hitchens book of essays in university. Some definitely didn't age well.

02-18-2017 , 04:06 PM

#11396

fatkid

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 8,860

I’d like to pushback a little bit on the idea that McCain et. al are not really opposing Trump. They are opposing him just in a super secret I'm a spineless ****ing coward sort of way. They will wait for the exact moment the car is going to to off the cliff then yell WAIT! They saw the car crash from 10 miles out. **** em.

02-18-2017 , 04:07 PM

#11397

amoeba

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 20,431

Maher shouldnt invite Milo for the same reason that he shouldn't invite Alex Jones.

02-18-2017 , 04:07 PM

#11398

aoFrantic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 25,218

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

There is literally no soul who is watching because of milo, thus has spent months or longer harassing minorities then watches Maher and switches sides.

02-18-2017 , 04:08 PM

#11399

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

I can't speak for Maher but Harris is a world class scholar on Islam. By no definition is he arguing from ignorance.

That's absurd and borders on some kind of hero worship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...olars_of_Islam

I don't see Harris on that list and I guarantee he's not qualified to be on it.