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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

07-20-2017 , 11:37 PM
Trump getting a lot of this. LoL, how predictable.
https://twitter.com/JarrettBellini/s...40140560322562
07-20-2017 , 11:53 PM
Joy Reid‏ Verified account
@JoyAnnReid

@CNN reporting Kasowitz is being "phased out" of the Trump legal team.
------------
Maggie Haberman‏ Verified account
@maggieNYT
Kasowitz is out in same way Gorelick is out - ie not gone but lesser role.

[As a practical matter, I'm not sure what this means. Does Kasowitz stay on email chains of team? Is he sought out for advice (when he doesn't really know the relevant law anyway, as it's not his area)? Does he respond to subpoenas, letters, write briefs? I suspect it means he's out and it's just a way for him to save face. Among other things, he probably could get security clearance due to drinking, as reported last week.]

Last edited by simplicitus; 07-20-2017 at 11:59 PM.
07-20-2017 , 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
Source? This could be possible, but it isn't my current understanding.

From p. 7 of report linked above, https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44857.pdf

"Termination of Independent Counsel Inquiries
The inquiry led by the independent counsel under the statute could be terminated under two methods. First, the statute directed that the office of the independent counsel would terminate upon notification by the independent counsel to the Attorney General that the investigation and any subsequent prosecutions had been completed.55 Second, the statute permitted the special division of the court—by its own choice or by the recommendation of the Attorney General—to terminate the office at any time if the investigation had been completed or sufficiently completed, allowing the DOJ to formally complete the inquiry under its own processes.56 In either case, the independent counsel was required to submit a report to the special division of the court detailing the work completed.57 The report was required to include “a description of the work of the independent counsel, including the disposition of all cases brought.”58

[This isn't explicit, but it suggests investigation would not end by removing special cousnel.]
I'm no expert on legalize but my reading is that the AG can just declare the complete is done "at any time". Maybe the special prosecutor has to submit a report to the AG, but the AG can just ignore it, right?
07-20-2017 , 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPantz
Can the president pardon before a conviction?

An indictment of anyone in his family/campaign should lead to impeachment hearings.
Most people say yes, but it's never been tested in court, so we don't know.
07-20-2017 , 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPantz
Can the president pardon before a conviction?

An indictment of anyone in his family/campaign should lead to impeachment hearings.
Didn't Ford pardon Nixon before any crime was officially charged?
07-21-2017 , 12:01 AM
Simplicitus, that seems to be referring to the independent council law that expired years ago. Based on the IC name and the reference to a court handling the twrmination. Mueller is a Special Council.
07-21-2017 , 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecriture d'adulte
I'm no expert on legalize but my reading is that the AG can just declare the complete is done "at any time". Maybe the special prosecutor has to submit a report to the AG, but the AG can just ignore it, right?
"the statute permitted the special division of the court—by its own choice or by the recommendation of the Attorney General" = the AG can "recommend" to the special division of the court (think it's 3 DC Circuit judges) to declare the investigation is complete, but it's for them to decide. It's not a loophole. Also, the "AG" in this context would be Rosenstein, as Sessions is recused.
07-21-2017 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron81
Simplicitus, that seems to be referring to the independent council law that expired years ago. Based on the IC name and the reference to a court handling the twrmination. Mueller is a Special Council.
Nope, it's a June 2017 Report from the Congressional Research service dealing with the current SC law.

Quote:
"Following the lapse of the statutory independent counsel provisions [in 1999], DOJ promulgated regulations authorizing the Attorney General (or, if the Attorney General is recused from a matter, the Acting Attorney General) to appoint a “special counsel” to conduct specific investigations or prosecutions that may be deemed to present a conflict of interest if pursued under the normal procedures of the agency. Under these regulations, the Attorney General may appoint an individual from outside the federal government to investigate and prosecute criminal matters within his or her assigned jurisdiction. Two instances in which the Attorney General has invoked this authority include the investigation of the Branch Davidian incident in Waco, Texas, and the current investigation of alleged Russian interference in the 2016 election. Special counsels appointed under this authority are vested “within the scope of his or her jurisdiction, the full power and independent authority to exercise all investigative and prosecutorial functions of any United States Attorney.” Special counsels are not subject to “day-to-day supervision” by any official, but may be asked to report to the Attorney General during the course of their work. The Attorney General must “give great weight to the views of the Special Counsel” but may conclude that particular actions should not be pursued and must notify Congress accordingly if the Attorney General rejects a particular course of action. Additionally, the Attorney General maintains the authority to discipline or remove the special counsel for cause."
To explain, the current SC law is actually a set of "regulations" that govern the office. Most "regulations" are enacted based on statutes passed by Congress, but they tend to be more specific, with operational details that give meaning to broader terms used in statutes. There are laws that govern how such regulations are made under the Administrative Procedure Act and other statutes, e.g., they are subject to notice and comment periods, etc.

Now, it may be that the current special counsel regulations are not actually enacted based on a statute (which lapsed) but from the Consitution itself, to specify the role of a special counsel in light of inherent conflicts from the executive branch investigating itself. Could the president, in theory, rescind the regulations? In theory, but the Executive branch cannot merely rescind regulations willy nilly. He would be stopped by the courts and, in any event, any attempt would absolutely force Congress to pass a new special counsel law.

[By the way, this whole thing will serve as the basis for Administrative Law exams in law schools for at least the next 15 years.]

Last edited by simplicitus; 07-21-2017 at 12:26 AM.
07-21-2017 , 12:05 AM
Lol NYT telling Manny Fort to suck a Dick penis.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-med...request-240782
07-21-2017 , 12:22 AM
Man, if I received a "strongly worded letter" from Trumps'/Manafort's/Don Jr's lawyers, I would literally cut and past a "dickbutt" jpg in response.

Like, "In response to your letter of July 20, we would note that:



Govern yourself accordingly.

Very truly yours,

Simplicitus
07-21-2017 , 12:27 AM
Just read a cool tweet that said if Mueller is fired people need to become visible immediately. Like hundreds of thousands within minutes and millions within an hour (peaceful of course). Sounds like a good idea. How can something like this be coordinated?
07-21-2017 , 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
Man, if I received a "strongly worded letter" from Trumps'/Manafort's/Don Jr's lawyers, I would literally cut and past a "dickbutt" jpg in response.

Like, "In response to your letter of July 20, we would note that:



Govern yourself accordingly.

Very truly yours,

Simplicitus
lol
07-21-2017 , 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl
Even the National Review is like, yea, he's going to fire Mueller



I do like the part where the defense is going to show up as "Trump didn't sign on for this". I'm willing to bet when Trump does fire him we'll hear Trumpists talking about getting out of his lane, poor Trump just had to rein him in, etc. Never mind this isn't even an independent council that pretty much gets free reign to do whatever it wants, Mueller looking into Trump's Russian business transactions and the transactions of those on his team makes perfect sense to find any quid pro quo in the Russian interference in the election.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...robert-mueller
I love how National Review, where every article reads like a scolding from your granddad, finds no moral dimension to this. Is it good that's he firing Mueller? Bad? Fair? Corrupt? Can't really say. It certainly is "bold" though. ****ing cowards.
07-21-2017 , 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin J
Just read a cool tweet that said if Mueller is fired people need to become visible immediately. Like hundreds of thousands within minutes and millions within an hour (peaceful of course). Sounds like a good idea. How can something like this be coordinated?
You can start by posting the tweet here so people can retweet.
07-21-2017 , 02:12 AM
Trump team seeks to control, block Mueller’s Russia investigation
On Monday, lawyer Ty Cobb, newly brought into the White House to handle responses to the Russian probe, convened a meeting with the president and his team of lawyers, according to two people briefed on the meeting. Cobb, who is not yet on the White House payroll, was described as attempting to instill some discipline in how the White House handles queries about the case. But Trump surprised many of his aides by speaking at length about the probe to the New York Times two days later.
lol
07-21-2017 , 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
That's another thing, Trump's legal team is already flirting obstruction of justice with regard to Mueller. I can't understand why Trump's lawyer isn't his own "spokesperson". I've never heard of a lawyer with a spokesperson, but it may be a way to avoid an obstruction charge. (But lawyers have a fair bit of leeway on what they can say on behalf of a client, at least under Calif. law.)
That spokesperson resigned last night.
07-21-2017 , 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uDevil
Trump getting a lot of this. LoL, how predictable.
https://twitter.com/JarrettBellini/s...40140560322562
And of course, there's a Trumpism for every situation.

07-21-2017 , 04:42 AM
Not good. Jared Kushner's appearance on Monday has strangely been changed from meeting with Senators to only meeting with staff. It's also now being called an "interview" instead of "testimony." WTF these people??

Note: Kushner quietly met with Graham yesterday to talk about immigration policy. Not adoptions, immigration this time. Why is he meeting with a Republican questioner anyway for any reason?
07-21-2017 , 04:57 AM
Just saw an exchange that made me chuckle. Surprisingly it was new to me.

Trumpkin/RusskBot: Trump is greatest POTUS. He created 1000s of jobs on his own.
Lib1: Name one.
Lib2: Robert Mueller.
07-21-2017 , 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
Nope, it's a June 2017 Report from the Congressional Research service dealing with the current SC law.


To explain, the current SC law is actually a set of "regulations" that govern the office. Most "regulations" are enacted based on statutes passed by Congress, but they tend to be more specific, with operational details that give meaning to broader terms used in statutes. There are laws that govern how such regulations are made under the Administrative Procedure Act and other statutes, e.g., they are subject to notice and comment periods, etc.

Now, it may be that the current special counsel regulations are not actually enacted based on a statute (which lapsed) but from the Consitution itself, to specify the role of a special counsel in light of inherent conflicts from the executive branch investigating itself. Could the president, in theory, rescind the regulations? In theory, but the Executive branch cannot merely rescind regulations willy nilly. He would be stopped by the courts and, in any event, any attempt would absolutely force Congress to pass a new special counsel law.

[By the way, this whole thing will serve as the basis for Administrative Law exams in law schools for at least the next 15 years.]
I'm pretty sure you're conflating IC and SC here. The first few pages of that pdf go into a bit if detail discussing the lapse of the IC statute, and IC and SC are explicitly defined on the very next page. I'd be shocked if the use of "independent counsel" wasn't precise in your earlier quote, especially in a CRS report.
07-21-2017 , 06:10 AM
Mueller is a true Patriot. If they somehow fire him and it looks like things are being swept under the rug, the information will get out. Would not be surprised if some US attorneys or at least deputies will be getting some large Manila envelopes. Maybe even the press.
07-21-2017 , 06:37 AM
If firing Mueller doesn't move the needle and get the GOP Congress to impeach Trump then whatever leaked details Mueller passes around after the fact isn't going to bother them either.

You guys are imagining a GOPer's reaction to be something like?:

Mueller fired: well boy howdy I am sure am deeply concerned and troubled but we have to give the President the benefit of the doubt after he's now fired the acting Attorney General, the FBI Director and Special Counsel Mueller
Mueller leaks embarrassing stuff he found out: woah, now we gotta act

They'll probably just start fretting about leaks and how it's partisan witch hunting, leaking sordid details from an incomplete investigation. While deeply troubling, everyone is at fault, let's just carry on. And that's the BEST you can hope for. The hardcore partisans (e.g., all of them) are just going to ignore or it prosecute Lorreta Lynch or prattle on about Hillary's email servers.

If Mueller is fired, and Congress doesn't act then, the post hoc leaks aren't going to save anyone.
07-21-2017 , 06:51 AM
Dvaut, they don't know what Mueller has yet. Could be Trump's taxes, could be anyone involved. Could be murders, heart attacks, and suicides for all we know.

Trump DOES know what he's on the hook for though. Hence the (self)pardon talks and lawyer resignations/demotions.
07-21-2017 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltan
I'm pretty sure you're conflating IC and SC here. The first few pages of that pdf go into a bit if detail discussing the lapse of the IC statute, and IC and SC are explicitly defined on the very next page. I'd be shocked if the use of "independent counsel" wasn't precise in your earlier quote, especially in a CRS report.
You're correct, the quoted portion was discussing remove of an IC under the prior statute. Here's the discussion of the removal of SC's from p. 11:

Quote:
Aside from review of particular actions, the regulations also grant the Attorney General authority to discipline or remove the special counsel. This authority may be exercised “only by the personal action of the Attorney General.”102 In other words, to comply with the regulations,103 the Attorney General himself must remove the special counsel, not the President or a surrogate (unless, as noted previously in this report, the Attorney General has recused himself in the matter under investigation).104 A decision to remove the special counsel must be made with “good cause,” such as misconduct, a dereliction of duty, incapacity, or the existence of conflicts of interest.105 The Attorney General must report his decision to remove the special counsel, with an explanation of that decision, to both the Chairman and Ranking Members of the Judiciary Committees of Congress.
I italicized "conflicts of interest" because Trump has raised the issue. In legal matters and investigations "conflicts of interest" is a well-defined phrase, as potential conflicts are not uncommon. The "conflicts" raised by Trump are nowhere near actual, legal conflicts of interest. And if there were an actual conflict of interest replacement of the SC with a new SC would be the remedy.

Regarding the legal authority for appointment of a SC:

Quote:
Following the expiration of the independent counsel statute, DOJ promulgated regulations in 1999, which are currently still in effect, to establish procedures for the appointment of special counsels pursuant to the Attorney General’s general administrative hiring authority.65 DOJ described these regulations as “strik[ing] a balance between independence and accountability in certain sensitive investigations.”66 DOJ acknowledged at the time the regulations were promulgated, however, that “there is no perfect solution” to achieving that goal.67
Regarding the scope of the SCs inquiry, recently challenged by Trump:

Quote:
Like the appointment and selection process, the sole authority to determine the scope of the special counsel’s inquiry rests with the [acting] Attorney General. The jurisdiction of the inquiry is determined by “a specific factual statement” about the matter to be investigated, which is provided by the [acting] Attorney General to the special counsel at the outset of the appointment.88

Last edited by simplicitus; 07-21-2017 at 07:01 AM.
07-21-2017 , 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Our House
Dvaut, they don't know what Mueller has yet. Could be Trump's taxes, could be anyone involved. Could be murders, heart attacks, and suicides for all we know.

Trump DOES know what he's on the hook for though. Hence the (self)pardon talks and lawyer resignations/demotions.
If Trump fires Mueller then everyone should and probably assume the worst about what Mueller has. If Congress isn't convinced to act, some leaked confirmation of bad stuff isn't going to take down Trump. They'll just blame the leaks or express some insincere trouble. Haven't we seen this before? THIS TIME it would be different though, right?

If Trump fires Mueller and Congress does nothing, it's basically over and it's anyone's guess where bottom is from there, but the floor won't be restored by leaks from the now shuttered investigation. Those are going to get swatted away and ignored.

      
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