Lies are one thing. They're not criminal except under oath. Firing Comey was bad, but very normal compared to firing Mueller. While it is obvious why he fired Comey, he at least has semi-plausible deniability with other fake reasons he can give. And it is within the range of normal activity of a President to fire an FBI director appointed by the previous President. But firing Mueller, there is no remotely plausible reason other than to derail the investigation and is so abnormal that he can't legally do it without firing other people first iirc or rewriting the rules. I would definitely march if that happened, and I hope everyone else here would too.

Time.

I hate to be the cynic but it takes time to deconstruct a 241 year old democracy.

I don't doubt two things are true.

Trump would do all the things you mention without losing a second of sleep or causing himself a moment's guilt.

Two, as long as the deconstruction is slow enough that their base can be convinced it's all good, republicans will do little to nothing to stop him.

He is simply the mechanism for their long stated goals. They hate government. They don't want it to succeed. They hate democracy even more. They spend all their time trying to dismantle it with gerrymandering, killing election comissions, advocating for voter suppression etc.

If you look at what he has "accomplised" in six short months he is ahead of schedule. He has effectively neutered the 4th estate, massively downsized the number of government positions, gutted state, installed unqualified lackies to lead most agencies and the GOP effectively stacked the supreme court. Let's not forget his endless stream of orders reducing the force and effect of government.

Firing Comey was pretty extreme and outside of normal imo under any context. I don't think it is at all normal to literally fire the FBI director and to do it for the stated reason that he's investigating you is basically unprecedented.

Nobody is saying it would be nbd. Quite the opposite. The solution has to be mass protests from the left because the right will never ever, no matter what he does, respond because they like that he is destroying government.

The sole reason for firing Mueller would be that Trump and Putin decided to minimize losses and let them expose what's already learned in order to stop them from learning more. Their one dilemma is they don't completely know what's been learned.

I personally believe that time will come when the deadline hits for Deutsche Bank to turn over records.

Dude, the FBI directors term is 10 years for a reason. The only previously fired fbi director was under serious investigation brought by prior administration. And the decision was laboriously justified with buyin of all sides.

Don't buy the BS talking point everyone makes that "it's ok for president to fire the fbi director." It's not, it's a violation of the intent of the statute, the norms governing the role, and probably obstruction of justice.

That said, if Trump fires Mueller he is done. And even if he did fire him, his staff wouldn't be fired. Cox's staff continued working under next special counsel. Plus, Mueller would likely give an update along the lines of, "We've uncovered multiple Trump people, including the president, involved in criminal activity."

Was that his stated reason? He said in private it relieved great pressure on the issue of Russia. But he didn't say that's why he did it (obviously it is, though). His public line was that Comey was a showboat and too mean to Hillary.

This may seem silly, but here's how I look at it. The Comey firing is like a person killing his enemy at night and making at least half an effort to hide the body and murder weapon. Firing Mueller is like a person gunning down his enemy in the middle of 5th avenue in front of a cop. The second murderer is way more dangerous than the first.

Do you not agree that firing Mueller is much worse?

I really hope you are correct but how do you envision this happening? Do you think the GOP would initiate impeachment hearings?

Firing Mueller would be much worse, but they'd probably replace him with Preet B. President would have to kill the independent counsel statute to prevent that, which he can't do and would be completely impeachable.

But don't normalize firing Comey, that's a BS Trumpist talking point.

yes but isn't that exactly how you would do something like this? Make sure the slightly less bad thing you did before was ignored? The fact that he suffered no repercussions for Comey is why he would fire Mueller.

Mueller is his reprecussion for firing Comey.

You've got to be kidding. Or maybe you don't have or remember all the details.

This dismantling is moving along at a record pace, which is why we don't have much time to waste. We're inches away from this POTUS and this GOP staying in power forever. It pains me to hear non-Trumpers everywhere saying to wait for 2018 or 2020 and we'll get them back. Wrap it around your heads that there likely is no 2018 after the next month or two. PAY ATTENTION!

Not my intention to normalize it. I only meant on a comparative basis. See my murder analogy for how I don't think it's normal.

Fair point but I am curious what you think happens if he fires Mueller? Do you envision a GOP revolt of some kind?

He said this publicly and he refers to the Russia investigation specifically. From wiki

I know Trump's approval would go under 30 and the sole issue in 2018 race would be whether a candidate would vote to impeach and dems would win 45 seat house majority. I think Ryan's only option would be to start impeachment proceedings. And the investigation would continue.

Lol are you even reading my posts? This is exactly what I'm saying. You are the one arguing that some unnamed mechanism will rise from the ashes of a Mueller firing to stop Trump. That mechanism is congress and it will do nothing.

That leaves only citizens and they certainly can't wait to 2018.

I really hope this is true but strongly doubt it. Perhaps there is still enough antidote to Trump built into the system but it's looking weaker and weaker by the day.

Nothing is happening at record pace. Trump is in check and everymove he makes is another check. He's done nothing. 18% of Trump voters now regret their vote.

You probably knew Lebron was going to be great the day he hit the nba. Susan from accounting first heard his name a year later but she eventually got there. Word filters out, most people don't follow politics obsessively and react immediately.

Because there are norms in place, which are being eroded. Firing Coney was very bad. We are very lucky that Muller is investigating. We should be thanking Rosenstein every day for appointing him. With a little more control over th DOJ and a little less incompetence, Trump could have easily ended the investigation But there were no mass protests when Coney was fired and there won't be any if Muller is axed. Things are on the brink of peril and most people are indifferent.

@simplicitus: I don't like that you're saying "they'd probably replace him with Preet. And then Trump would have to... "

This is the point I'm trying to hammer home. It's OVER if he fires Mueller and doesn't immediately get impeached. There is no, well, the Republicans will be extra troubled with pickles and special sauce. They'll definitely do x if that happens (where x is not impeachment).

There's no more counting on the other branches of government to restrain Trump at that point, even the sacred courts of law, which we all respect so much except for the entire Trump base and probably a large chunk of low info independent and Democrat voters who don't see what the big deal is about firing some guy who's giving you a hard time. The calculus at that point is how many people can we squeeze onto Pennsylvania Ave and the Capitol steps and whether we can make our signs spicy enough to eject this PoS from office.

Imagine where we would be if this imbecile didn't voluntarily give biweekly interviews confirming his criminal behavior? A smart version of Trump would seriously be gg USA.

Does he have anything to gain at this point from his threats on firing Mueller? Trial balloon? Just emotionally lashing out?

The 2018 election is 16 months away. There is no way, even if every other check and balance fails, that Trump fires Mueller, doesn't get impeached, and gop retains majority. It is more likely it ceases to be a viable party.

In the meantime, nothing moves forward, nothing gets done, and Trump fails. If this is incorrect, then democracy is a lie, but your assumptions are like arguing people somehow convinced themselves Iraq was a great success. It wasn't, people ultimately noticed. Bush had great support, everything went bad, support was gone. It's called democracy.

Lots of people don't follow politics and dont learn so fast. They thought Trump had an upside and was just clowin. He didnt and he wasn't.

Trump's not going to lose in a coup or from street protests, his support will continue to evaporate and he or his protectors will lose a big election. If gop continues to protect him when he is at 30% it will make the 1976 election look quaint.

The President vs. Federal Law Enforcement: Trump Attacks Everyone

https://lawfareblog.com/president-vs...tacks-everyone

Too many bedwetters, everything is going according to script. Trump's BS policies fail to gain support, he alienates everyove except 4chan trolls, Hannity, and our major historical geopolitical adversary, investigations continue, leaks leak, gop gets punished, Trump gets impeached. It's not that complicated once you strip away the song and dance routines.