The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. - Page 1545 - Politics and Economics

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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

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06-05-2017 , 11:15 AM

#38601

AllTheCheese

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

I'm with you, but we lost this battle years ago.

(see foundering vs. floundering, etc.)

We must resist "escape goat" and "for all intensive purposes" or all is lost.

Yeah, "begs the question" is a lost cause. I think I read somewhere that it was misused way more than used correctly, like 5 to 1 or something. All the living language populists (aka apologists for morons) have decreed that no actually YOU'RE the douche for pointing out the correct usage. So just say goodbye to that signifier of one of the most common fallacies. In b4 people start correcting "raises the question" with "I think you mean 'begs the question.'"

If "all intensive purposes" becomes accepted use, I think it's time to hang up the jersey and take up sign language.

Last edited by AllTheCheese; 06-05-2017 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Word is born.

06-05-2017 , 11:16 AM

#38602

fatkid

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Not talking about Russia today. 12th level checkers.

06-05-2017 , 11:23 AM

#38603

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheCheese

If "all intensive purposes" becomes accepted use, I think it's time to hang up the jersey and take up sign language.

Bad news, I'm afraid, that also evolves so there's no escape.

06-05-2017 , 11:25 AM

#38604

simplicitus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

No. The popular interpretation is ~10Kx the more natural reading of the phrase. The minority who even know about the technical sense should either suffer the horrors of reading the phrase in context, or come up with a new one.

The thing is the popular phrase is obviously derived from a misinterpretation of the original. We rarely use "beg" in that sense, so it's basically an idiomatic phrase. That said, I'm down with the whole language evolves over time thing and am not going to pick the "begs the question" hill to die on. (Though, actual begging the question comes up a lot more than people realize or call out. It should be part of everyone's analytical toolbox and, in an ideal world, not subject to confusion with its popular bastardization.)

06-05-2017 , 11:29 AM

#38605

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by simplicitus

The thing is the popular phrase is obviously derived from a misinterpretation of the original. We rarely use "beg" in that sense, so it's basically an idiomatic phrase. That said, I'm down with the whole language evolves over time thing and am not going to pick the "begs the question" hill to die on. (Though, actual begging the question comes up a lot more than people realize or call out. It should be part of everyone's analytical toolbox and, in an ideal world, not subject to confusion with its popular bastardization.)

Yeah, that's why I think it would be useful to come up with a new phrase to describe question-begging.

06-05-2017 , 11:31 AM

#38606

AllTheCheese

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Or maybe English speakers in the age of the internet can learn the ****ing original and not say gibberish because it feels good, man.

06-05-2017 , 11:33 AM

#38607

simplicitus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

Assuming constant continuous incompetence of the kind we've seen so far from Trump, how much of his base will abandon the concept of checks and balances, co-equal branches etc in favour of literal autocracy? The psychological appeal is obvious: they don't have to have been wrong the way they do if they reject Trump. Other people are wrong instead, many of them liberals (and most of the others RINOs).

He's at 38% approval (maybe 36% after Britain tweets, maybe 34% after Comey testifies), with under 30% (maybe under 25%) among the young/still working, educated, and powerful.

He can't even find people willing to staff his administration. If he tries to screw with the constitutional order his approval would actually go below 25% and the GOP would impeach (one of the few scenarios where I am convinced they would).

06-05-2017 , 11:34 AM

#38608

Money2Burn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by simplicitus

Fwiw, it bugs me, too. Especially when other attorneys use it incorrectly.

06-05-2017 , 11:37 AM

#38609

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheCheese

Or maybe English speakers in the age of the internet can learn the ****ing original and not say gibberish because it feels good, man.

Or maybe you're just fundamentally mistaken about the nature of language and get salty at being deprived of a way of looking down on people¯\_(ツ)_/¯

06-05-2017 , 11:37 AM

#38610

zikzak

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The term "begging the question", as this is usually phrased, originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which actually translates as "assuming the initial point".

heh

06-05-2017 , 11:38 AM

#38611

fatkid

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Waters gets me.

06-05-2017 , 11:39 AM

#38612

Namath12

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grammar burns are so boss

06-05-2017 , 11:39 AM

#38613

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by simplicitus

He's at 38% approval (maybe 36% after Britain tweets, maybe 34% after Comey testifies), with under 30% (maybe under 25%) among the young/still working, educated, and powerful.

He can't even find people willing to staff his administration. If he tries to screw with the constitutional order his approval would actually go below 25% and the GOP would impeach (one of the few scenarios where I am convinced they would).

I'm not saying they wouldn't. I'm just saying, there is some hard core of supporters who wouldn't abandon him if that happened. And I think it might be larger than most people suppose.

06-05-2017 , 11:42 AM

#38614

AllTheCheese

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Quote:

Originally Posted by simplicitus

Yeah, pretty useful to know this phrase and correct people, not just on the Queen's English side of it, but also simply to raise awareness of the phenomenon and supply a label for it. Useful in Trump's America where AHCA is explained as being good because it's "tremendous, the best." If people are connecting those statements to "begging the question," then to logical fallacies, that's a micro-victory for anti-Trumpism.

06-05-2017 , 11:42 AM

#38615

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 59,272

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplicitus

I'm convinced the GOP congress will let Trump do literally whatever he wants. I will believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.

Regarding his approval, I don't think the Britain tweets or the Comey testimony will move the needle any more than maybe 1% combined.

There's certainly room for Trump to hit 30%, or even 20%, but most of these scenarios involve some sort of economic hardship.

06-05-2017 , 11:42 AM

#38616

simplicitus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fatkid

Waters gets me.

The whole "Build the Wall" thing is, as the Brits say, a bit on the nose.

06-05-2017 , 11:44 AM

#38617

AllTheCheese

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Quote:

Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

Or maybe you're just fundamentally mistaken about the nature of language and get salty at being deprived of a way of looking down on people¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, u.

06-05-2017 , 11:44 AM

#38618

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheCheese

Yeah, pretty useful to know this phrase and correct people, not just on the Queen's English side of it, but also simply to raise awareness of the phenoqmon and supply a label for it. Useful in Trump's America where AHCA is explained as being good because it's "tremendous, the best." If people are connecting those statements to "begging the question," then to logical fallacies, that's a micro-victory for anti-Trumpism.

Principled Debate!

06-05-2017 , 11:45 AM

#38619

einbert

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06-05-2017 , 11:45 AM

#38620

Our House

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Did Trump only double down on the Mayor because he thought it looked weak when their office said that they were too busy to reply to the first tweet?

IMO, everyone Trump attacks on Twitter should make the time to come back at him. It's basically a freeroll at Trump getting pissed off and making nice, big legal mistakes like he's doing now.

Maybe it's not a huge deal for the Muslim Ban, but the price of poker just went up with a special counsel and criminal investigation running.

Speaking of speaking, Trump is supposed to make a speech soon amidst all the **** that's going on.

06-05-2017 , 11:53 AM

#38621

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,466

**** me, he really IS privatizing air traffic control.

Hooray, now I feel less safe flying

06-05-2017 , 11:56 AM

#38622

Our House

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The speech in a few minutes is about grifting...errrr...I mean a $1 trillion infrastructure plan, including privatization of air traffic control and possibly roads, tunnels, etc.

Wish us luck while the POTUS strips our country down for scrap metal money.

06-05-2017 , 11:57 AM

#38623

Namath12

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fatkid

Waters gets me.

He does a lot of politarding in his shows and imho it detracts from the awesomness of said shows. I saw him in 2012, well before Trump was a thing, and he did it then as well. People on the left and right (in the group of 12 I was in) were turned off by it. ymmv

06-05-2017 , 11:58 AM

#38624

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,466

Isnt that the ****ing tits? Like of the two, which is more likely to make you feel less safe flying?

Chance of terror attack

or

Chance of private company cutting back safety measures cause it will save them $20?

I know which one worries me more.