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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

05-07-2017 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Dvault,

No one has suggested punishing Obama. So, basically you're just adding that part. If the ex-potus takes too much money from such and such sources they lose their pension.

All I'm doing so far is saying it's ok to call them out.
Obviously call them out. Also important not just to focus on POTUS but lots of others as well. Cabinet members, highly visible regulators, perhaps Congress. The President provides a valuable, easy to understand anecdote but it's bad when guys like Geithner and Greenspan and HRC are getting gobtons of checks for speeches when out of office too.

And re: the bolded, that threat becomes much more credible if the pension is more valuable.
05-07-2017 , 11:02 AM
The argument that's being made is that if Obama were paid a huge pension, he'd have less incentive to speak for Wall Street. Wow, no kidding!

But you have to ask if there are negative consequences to making such payoffs (there are) and whether there are better ways to disincentivize such behavior (there are).
05-07-2017 , 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese
The argument that's being made is that if Obama were paid a huge pension, he'd have less incentive to speak for Wall Street. Wow, no kidding!

But you have to ask if there are negative consequences to making such payoffs (there are) and whether there are better ways to disincentivize such behavior (there are).
Such as?
05-07-2017 , 11:08 AM
Negative Consequences: The obvious that the taxpayers will be footing these bills, but more importantly attracting an even greater number who are in politics for the money.

Better Ways: Laws and aggressive stigmatizing.
05-07-2017 , 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
As I pointed out to atc that's exactly why this is a stupid point. The market for professors is not the same market for CEOs or politicians.

The very best fast food manager on earth probably makes less than 70k.

Different markets value thier participants differently.

We can argue there are problems with how some markets value people highly while others value them too low but then we are having an income inequality discussion which is not the one we are currently engaged in.
In this context we should argue about whether a board of directors setting CEO salary should be called a market or not instead of whether they are erroneously or irrationally determining value.
05-07-2017 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Consider a sports analogy and the integrity of highly notable competitive sports. Take it as a given that people have always gambled on sport and have always wanted an edge by rigging the games, and will always want that edge. Take that as the analogy to "there will always be money in politics trying to unduly influence things."

Now consider the history: take the early 20th century when gamblers bribed professional players who weren't making nearly as much modern contemporary professional athletes, even inflation adjusted. Compare to the contemporary era where gamblers and organized crime bribe either refs or amateurs/college athletes to fix games, and bribing professional athletes is almost unheard of.

Am I saying we pay Barack Obama like Lebron James? No, but the world of incentives exists on a scale like that. I don't know if Lebron James is more moral than Shoeless Joe Jackson but it's very very easy to predict who is going to be harder to corrupt. Am I saying all professional athletes are incorruptible? No; Pete Rose exists. But I think it's clear how the incentives operate and how the system ecology functions, and which behaviors are predictable given the incentives and compensation of the parties involved.
The graph of pay vs. corruptability is probably not linear. Shoeless Joe made the equivalent of $144k/year in a career with a very short duration and no special prospects for even a decent job after it's over. That's not abject poverty, but it's not a very secure position. It's a long way off from the absolute guarantee of upper middle class income for life that the retiring potus and most retiring top government officials get.

I wouldn't predict any advantage of $2m/year over $300k/year as far as corruption goes.
05-07-2017 , 11:22 AM
Agree with DVaut, but still prefer the Obama method to the Lyndon Johnson / Dennis Hastert program.
05-07-2017 , 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
The graph of pay vs. corruptability is probably not linear. Shoeless Joe made the equivalent of $144k/year in a career with a very short duration and no special prospects for even a decent job after it's over. That's not abject poverty, but it's not a very secure position. It's a long way off from the absolute guarantee of upper middle class income for life that the retiring potus and most retiring top government officials get.

I wouldn't predict any advantage of $2m/year over $300k/year as far as corruption goes.
This. Not sure if there's no advantage, but it seems clear there will be diminishing returns.
05-07-2017 , 11:26 AM
OK let me try to get this from a different angle.

If you credibly want to position yourself as a power broker for the liberal/left, if you want to credibly cast yourself as an advocate for the poor and middle class and environment...

Wall Street shouldn't WANT to hear what you have to say. The issue isn't just that Obama said yes, the issue is that he was even asked.

Someone said earlier that it's not like he was talking to ISIS or the Klan. True, true. But take away the money entirely. Let's say he was doing it for free. Wall Street ain't the Klan, but it's on the bad side of the morality ledger.

We light up right wingers for giving talks to insane Bircher and neo-Confederate groups, justifiably, because speaking at a conference for a group implies ideological support for that group. And those groups aren't the Klan or ISIS, and they generally don't have $400k to pay, but all the same that is an absolutely valid hit.
05-07-2017 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
In this context we should argue about whether a board of directors setting CEO salary should be called a market or not instead of whether they are erroneously or irrationally determining value.
Both good points. For the record there is no doubt CEOs are radically over-paid and income inequality is the biggest time bomb in the middle of economy right now.
05-07-2017 , 11:29 AM
Worth noting for this argument that Obama agreed to speak at Cantor Fitzgerald despite ALREADY having a 60 million dollar book deal.
05-07-2017 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
OK let me try to get this from a different angle.

If you credibly want to position yourself as a power broker for the liberal/left, if you want to credibly cast yourself as an advocate for the poor and middle class and environment...

Wall Street shouldn't WANT to hear what you have to say. The issue isn't just that Obama said yes, the issue is that he was even asked.

Someone said earlier that it's not like he was talking to ISIS or the Klan. True, true. But take away the money entirely. Let's say he was doing it for free. Wall Street ain't the Klan, but it's on the bad side of the morality ledger.

We light up right wingers for giving talks to insane Bircher and neo-Confederate groups, justifiably, because speaking at a conference for a group implies ideological support for that group. And those groups aren't the Klan or ISIS, and they generally don't have $400k to pay, but all the same that is an absolutely valid hit.
This is a truely self-defeating position which is based on left wing religion and not facts in the real world.

The financial sector is not entirely fillled with cartoon villains trying to **** over the world. They are people driven by incentives just like everyone. There are good people and bad people with the former vastly outnumbering the latter.

There are huge problems with the financial sector, and they need more not less regulation, but the left needs to stop acting like the core of the global economy is an untreatable cancer.
05-07-2017 , 11:36 AM
Re fly's point

That's an issue too. It's not something that should be punished, but it's very fair to say "wtf?" if a Democrat is the darling of Wall St. going into and coming out of office.

That doesn't even necessarily hold only if Wall St. is immoral. There's something about balance. Having two business parties and no labor party is an objective problem.
05-07-2017 , 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese
Negative Consequences: The obvious that the taxpayers will be footing these bills, but more importantly attracting an even greater number who are in politics for the money.

Better Ways: Laws and aggressive stigmatizing.
No sane person would become President for the money, no matter how much the job pays. It's way too hard, and anyone smart enough to be president can make millions in half a dozen other ways without a sweat. People become president because they want power, but if they want both power and money, it would be nice if they could get enough money to satisfy their desires without compromising policy.
05-07-2017 , 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmgGlutten!
what percent of people who work do it because they want to? we do hear those stories of the lotto winner who gets driving a bus, but both men and women work almost exclusively for $...

so, i have always found the criticism of those 1950 pictures where the wife is cooking dinner kind of silly. gender roles aside, getting to stay home and cook an actual balanced dinner means you are pretty damn lucky.

in the vast majority of cases, that housewife cooking dinner didn't become sarrah jessica parker in Sex in the City she became Wendy at Walmart and the dinner became the dollar menu at Mcdonalds.

is it really about women having more opportunity to have a career or just declining real wages and wealth inequality?
World War II broke the seal on the necessity of having women to work. However you are correct that the prevelance and almost requisite two income families came about due to wealth inequality and relative ability for one earner to support a middle class family.

Our society would be much better off if parents with children could successfully support their household with a single income, and it doesn't have to be the man.
05-07-2017 , 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
No sane person would become President for the money, no matter how much the job pays. It's way too hard, and anyone smart enough to be president can make millions in half a dozen other ways without a sweat. People become president because they want power, but if they want both power and money, it would be nice if they could get enough money to satisfy their desires without compromising policy.
I thought the discussion was paying a broad class of politicians more, not just Pres. Clovis mentioned making more money than his Congressman.
05-07-2017 , 11:42 AM
Someone not satisfied by the retirement package of the potus plus the book deal (and they can just have someone else write the book) will never be satisfied by any amount of money.
05-07-2017 , 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
No sane person would become President for the money, no matter how much the job pays. It's way too hard, and anyone smart enough to be president can make millions in half a dozen other ways without a sweat.

In a Beijing ballroom, Kushner family pushes $500,000 ‘investor visa’ to wealthy Chinese
05-07-2017 , 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese
I thought the discussion was paying a broad class of politicians more, not just Pres. Clovis mentioned his Congressman.
It was and I think all politicians should be paid more.

Also I have a Member of Parliment (MP), not a congressman.
05-07-2017 , 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
This is a truely self-defeating position which is based on left wing religion and not facts in the real world.

The financial sector is not entirely fillled with cartoon villains trying to **** over the world. They are people driven by incentives just like everyone. There are good people and bad people with the former vastly outnumbering the latter.
The financial sector is 100% professional rent seeking. Their personal character is irrelevant, he's not accepting a personal invitation from a guy who happens to work in finance.

Quote:
There are huge problems with the financial sector, and they need more not less regulation, but the left needs to stop acting like the core of the global economy is an untreatable cancer.
How often are Warren or Sanders asked to speak to Wall Street groups, do you think?
05-07-2017 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Someone not satisfied by the retirement package of the potus plus the book deal (and they can just have someone else write the book) will never be satisfied by any amount of money.
This is crazy. So Obama of one of these "people who will never be satisfied by any amount of money"?

Of course not. By every measure he is one of the most moral presidents ever yet here he is reacting to the very incentives you are claiming don't exist.
05-07-2017 , 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
The financial sector is 100% professional rent seeking.
This is just a religious belief. We might as well argue over the temperature of burning bush from the Book of Exodus.
05-07-2017 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
How often are Warren or Sanders asked to speak to Wall Street groups, do you think?
If I had to guess, pretty often, especially recently.
05-07-2017 , 11:51 AM
Clovis,

Goalpost shift.
05-07-2017 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
That's not at all what he is saying. He is arguing for not spending dollars when there is NO chance of saving the person.

And it's silly to pretend there are not limits on healthcare. If it costs 100m in tax dollars to save someone would you be ok with it? How about 200m? One billion?

Of course there is a line no matter how odious it seems.

And he is using anecdotes but some quick googling shows that a lot of healthcare is spent on th final few months of a person life. His anecdotes are backed up by the data.
but he is using those points to argue for stuff like lifetime caps and essentially argue for death panels.

the fact is that we do have the resources. if canada and euro countries can do it, then we certainly can too.

      
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