Putin may be a lot of things, but too stupid to live is probably not one of them.

Sorry I didn't see that.

Trade is complicated. But I'm pretty sure everyone here know that.

I really don't know the answer to the following dilemma:

Manufacturing allowed the lower educated (white) working class to have a middle class income and lifestyle. Capital will always try to lower labor costs. Capital moved factories overseas or across the border to save on labor costs. Working class revolted.

The answer by the way, isn't simply education. Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs. And yes you can leave them behind, but you saw the outcome of that, it was Trump.

I guess I could keep babbling on, but I do feel for these people. And while I'm aware that life isn't fair, and you can't count on factory jobs forever, be more marketable, blah, blah, it does feel like (to me at least) that perhaps [something] should be done about extracting foreign labor at slave wages and then selling the products back into our country with all the additional profits going to capital.

I find it interesting that the vocal left are "Fighting for $15" as a minimum wage, yet want to laugh at the factory workers as not being "marketable" enough when their jobs go to Mexico. So for example, the left finds it appalling that in Yuma, AZ, a fast-food worker doesn't make $15/hour, but a Mexican factory worker in Mexicali, MX working for $4/day is fine and dandy?

Why isn't it OUTRAGEOUS to you guys that capital moves their factory to a place just for cheaper labor, and then expects to sell their widgets back into this country for no penalty?

Are you trying to say the left was ok with outsourcing and offshoring? You may not be remembering how that happened.

Love the theory that some people just aren't destined to get an education. It's like Calvinism for the 21st century.

Yes awval the answer to low skill high paying jobs disappearing is obviously to pretend to bring them back and then place monstrous tariffs on imported goods.

Those former workers who now have a much lower income can at least enjoy the very regressive import penalties to make their lives even more winning.

Regardless of what people want or think it's a global marketplace and America has to compete on that stage. Look at the auto industry. They were long the poster child for blue collar middle to upper middle class lifestyles with amazing benefits. The only problem with that is that became an absolute albatross around the neck of the car manufacturers.

So I guess America could only have American made cars by companies that don't sell their products outside the United Stated but something tells me "Great" would not aptly describe that country.

Certainly it's easy to bemoan products made in foreign countries at dirt floor wages but the reality of that is most Americans in turn are allowed to enjoy things they otherwise would have no chance at all to be able to afford because in the scheme of the world poor people in America or not poor at all.

I have no issue, for example, with Trump wanting to focus on trade deals between individual countries and not in large groups. But he has talked ridiculous and insulting nonsense and bragged about how he was going to get the best of everyone else even though we all knew it would never happen.

And in his presidency so far he hasn't done ANYTHING to further trade to benefit the United States except to back out of a deal everyone already wanted to back out of before.

Pretty much everything he has tried to implement so far in other areas have been losses or experienced huge setbacks. So the time table to even do anything worthy on trade keeps getting pushed backed. Plus the State Department is running on fumes and if we do make any deals with the likes of China we will likely spend thr next twenty years trying to undo whatever dumb thing he does.

The one hope is if Bannon goes soon the unending drum beat of stupid nationalism will lessen allowing, potentially, for a more rational and reasonable approach. It's not like trump or anyone else can bring those manufacturing jobs back.

"Monstrous Tariffs" is definitely one of those strawmen. People act like NAFTA and the later "free trade" treaties were what ended that age of tariffs. Tariffs pretty much ended around WW2.

Says the guy who is paying down tens of thousands on an education he was fortunate enough to be able to go into debt for.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

Unfortunately, some of these people aren't destined for highly educated type jobs.

It is absolutely insane to me that the class of people that is fortunate enough to get a college education are the same class of people that are like "yeah, this situation is fine. no need to change a thing." Is it just that you think other people should have to experience the same pointless load of debt you did, or you think it's a zero-sum game where there are only so many high-skilled jobs to go around?

Why isn't every Democrat on every Sunday show just giving speech after speech about the CRIMINAL Jeff Sessions and how he lied under oath and must resign immediately? This is literally free money sitting on the table and Democrats are just walking away daily.

Why is everyone jumping on avwal's obviously true statement that every coal miner is not going to be retrained as a computer scientist?

Middle age men who dropped out of high school are not going to be magically retrained into high paying 21st century jobs.

It's literally one of the few things he has ever posted which was true.

Why not? If you can learn to work the advanced automatic and robotic systems that allow coal to be mined in the modern era, you can learn how to write basic software. It's a lot like plumbing.

The truth is less is expected from these people. The white working class are supposed to be able to get theirs WITHOUT getting an education, that's supposed to be a burden for women and minorities. That's the entire reason they picked 45* when faced with the option of an actual education and a future, or a con man who promises to rearrange the entire global trade order. The hard truth is that that magical America where white men just become middle class and get to own a house by sheer virtue of the fact that they're willing to show up for work every day is over, and it's never coming back.

They are all on board with the new war on drugs he is about to launch to enrich the prison industrial complex which means lots of donations to congress people on both sides?

A cynical person might say.

It's really not, at least it's not if you understand how things work. I mean, GDP/capita is higher now than it's ever been and, except for recessions, it's always rising. Which essentially means that the value of all goods and services produced in this country isn't just rising, but rising with respect to population growth.

So what's the difference between now and then? Why did people get paid more for work in the (false) narrative we're constructing about the 50s-70s? Were they more productive? Maybe, but why is gdp/capita still rising? The problem isn't that less money is being made so less money goes to the middle class, it's that a higher percent of the money being made is constantly shifting to a smaller and smaller portion of the population. And there's no reason for that except for nebulous ideas like technology or whatever, but you can't actually point to hard facts that provide an explanation for why this is happening.

We talk about how factories close and move out of the country, but that's only happening because those things can be produced cheaper out of the country, as in we get things for less money. Why would we want to pay more for something to be produced here? And those jobs are terrible jobs, like I work in manufacturing facilities, and it's not like the grunts enjoy their work or anything like that. Nobody wants to be there, except the *******s like me who mostly do desk work.

Yeah this is the new reality we all need to accept and figure out how we can best create successful paths for everyone. But there is no turning back the clock on this and I am worried what happens after four years when this disenfranchised swath of voters have nothing to show for their fervor but a handful of coal mining jobs.

I don't think you have a good grasp on coal mining or computer science. This is just a silly post.

Cost aside, the question of how many college graduates the US can support is hard to know. Unfortunately, the alternatives to college are not great. The advice of 30-40 years ago -- "learn a trade" -- feels more than a little out of date.

I will say offer this anecdote. My wife is a professor at a third/fourth tier, private university. The overwhelming majority of her students are upper middle class. They are mostly white. They are 18-22. They are not 30-year old single parents who are trying to juggle college and work in an attempt to improve their lives.

From day one, she has noted the extreme lack of effort and interest shown by 90% of her students. Huge percentages of her colleagues feel the same way. It's pretty easy to feel cynical in the face of complete student apathy. I suspect that most of these kids are going to college because mommy and daddy insisted. And mommy and daddy insisted because they know that you can't even get a job as a real estate agent, office manager, etc., without a college degree these days.

Anyway as to the point about how to help all people, I am totally for some kind of Universal Basic Income program which would allow all people their basic needs and they could worry about whether they want a fulfilling career or not. That is inevitable at some point anyway, although it's hard to say how far down the line that is. But for the time being, I think we are missing out on a ton of potential economic growth by having this huge glut of people who would love to get an education, but don't want to go deep into debt to get one. It's not just a negative for that person, it's a negative for all of our society, and it accumulates into an actual national security issue. When your middle class falls apart and breaks down, that's when people like Donald Trump become viable candidates. Part of the reason we got here in the first place is because we failed to recognize the importance of education and invest in properly. I can only imagine where we'll be in twenty years if we don't realize that mistake now and turn course to correct it.

It's a truism that many people employed in a field as it heads into obsolescence are not going to be able to make as much money in some other field. Should we have heavily taxed computers in order to keep the typewriter plants operating? That seems like the worst possible solution to the problem--certainly worse than just doing nothing.

This kind of stuff happens all the time. I think it would be great if the government had some sort of program to help people transition from jobs that are getting phased out, but the idea that every worker from some particular industry is entitled to make the same amount of money no matter what happens is absurd. What's worse is that if you prop up that industry you deprive all citizens of the extra efficiencies and you almost certainly make the eventual and inevitable collapse of said industry more sudden and painful.

How do you explain that to Trump voters? I have no idea.

Computer science deals with layers, modules, and various tools just like construction, plumbing, welding, etc. Applications of computer science allow for information to smoothly flow from one place to another or be processed in some way, just like physical trades like construction, plumbing, and welding allow for physical elements (water, heat, pressure, weight) to be properly processed or smoothly flow from point A to point B. Think about it.

Layers as a design concept in construction:


Layers as a design concept in computer science:

Schumpeter's creative destruction is simply a fact of all modern economic systems. It is not new nor over. It's a feature, not a bug, and any politician pretending otherwise is just an idiot and liar.

UBI sounds great until you ask where the money is coming from?

I would explain it to them along with the promise of a free education for the new American economy. We're going to actually make the American economy robust again by initiating a sweeping revolution of technology, green energy, and advanced manufacturing to replace our old economy in the Heartland. This is your chance to make a great wage so you can take care of your family, contribute to a real great American project, and you won't even have to pay off any student loans, ever. Or you can sit in the corner and feel sorry for yourself.

These people aren't illiterate guys. A lot of them do really impressive things every single day. Welders do AMAZING things that I couldn't even dream of being capable of doing. You give them this opportunity, they will reach out and take it.

Taxes and the political will to get it done. The first part is doable, the 2nd is not yet realistic.