The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. - Page 2490 - Politics and Economics

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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

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10-13-2017 , 11:19 AM

#62226

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

werewolf just like, as a little example, have you noticed that you are doing a real dog**** job of changing hearts and minds here because of how despite you not swearing once, your obvious and transparent insincerity is creating significant and widespread negative backlash from the book readers club of normies?

10-13-2017 , 11:20 AM

#62227

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Calling me a "dumb ****" is attacking the arguer.

Puerto Rico isn't black, and Trump didn't say Puerto Ricans are it should be treated as subhuman.

Hahahahaha.

10-13-2017 , 11:21 AM

#62228

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Calling me a "dumb ****" is attacking the arguer.

Puerto Rico isn't black, and Trump didn't say Puerto Ricans are it should be treated as subhuman.

So treating them as subhumans only counts if he says the actual words? Calling you a dumb**** isn’t attacking you anymore than calling an Apple red is.

10-13-2017 , 11:21 AM

#62229

Riverman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 73,135

American History X featured many fine people who are best dealt with by polite conversation!

LBJ probably could have gotten a better Civil Rights bill by having morning coffee with Strom Thurmond.

10-13-2017 , 11:22 AM

#62230

True North

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,703

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chippa58

Does Trump think there's an actual ban on saying "Merry Christmas"?

Nothing is out of the realm of possibility.

10-13-2017 , 11:22 AM

#62231

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Master, I have no idea how you read "capitulate" from that quote.

What exactly do you think they expect to prove they aren't under attack?

10-13-2017 , 11:22 AM

#62232

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Pretty much strawmanning. For most of the other side in this debate it's not about making the symbols illegal, but about calling them racists and such. If the you/chez/clovis position is that you don't even call them idiots, but you use your geometric logic to prove that they are idiots while you remain perfectly calm and follow Robert's rules, then you're still calling them idiots. You're just being condescending at the same time.

Well, there's one wrinkle to that, werewolf(sit down for this) is also unwilling to call Trump(or anyone else) a white supremacist unless he explicitly labels himself that way. So he's theoretically willing to condescend to a racist, but we will need to find one for him first.

Cite for that claim. No, Puerto Ricans aren't black. No, he didn't say anything about the race of the criminals making the inner cities warzones. No, Jeff Sessions is just a Southern conservative. No, there were very fine people marching on both sides, and really the media did underplay how the danger of antifa.

And so forth.

10-13-2017 , 11:24 AM

#62233

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,445

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian

they gave a standing ovation for "taking decisive action against those who threaten us". extremely christian.

Do you think that if the evangelicals (I'm afraid to capitalize anything) could all agree simultaneously to switch to a more appropriate religion, like whatever the Klingons have, they would?

10-13-2017 , 11:26 AM

#62234

Trolly McTrollson

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 36,698

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Pretty much strawmanning. For most of the other side in this debate it's not about making the symbols illegal, but about calling them racists and such. If the you/chez/clovis position is that you don't even call them idiots, but you use your geometric logic to prove that they are idiots while you remain perfectly calm and follow Robert's rules, then you're still calling them idiots;* you're just being condescending at the same time.

*grammar nits: How would you punctuate that? comma? semi-colon? period and new sentence?

Just a comma, I think. Def not a semicolon.

10-13-2017 , 11:31 AM

#62235

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Pretty much strawmanning. For most of the other side in this debate it's not about making the symbols illegal, but about calling them racists and such. If the you/chez/clovis position is that you don't even call them idiots, but you use your geometric logic to prove that they are idiots while you remain perfectly calm and follow Robert's rules, then you're still calling them idiots;* you're just being condescending at the same time.

*grammar nits: How would you punctuate that? comma? semi-colon? period and new sentence?

This isn't a fair representation of my position at all as I've stated already itt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

For like the 7th time, I'm not for unfettered free speech, I'm for unfettered free political speech.

Also, nobody is saying we meet nazis in the middle ffs. I've spent much of my adulthood fighting racism for god's sake. I've marched in rallies, taught courses on race, and donate to the bloody SPLC.

We fight nazis with everything we have.....except censorship. Not because we don't want to censor nazis, in a perfect world, but because censorship is a bomb that always kills the person delivering it as well.

10-13-2017 , 11:36 AM

#62236

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,445

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Cite Trump saying he wants to treat blacks as subhuman.

He didn't say it. He did it.

10-13-2017 , 11:41 AM

#62237

Victor

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 71,823

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

So treating them as subhumans only counts if he says the actual words? Calling you a dumb**** isn’t attacking you anymore than calling an Apple red is.

its just more of the same from his side. remember, these guys think if they just preface a statement with, "I am not racist", or "I am a liberal" or "I believe in homosexual rights" then they simply cant be racist/bigoted no matter the content.

10-13-2017 , 11:44 AM

#62238

Victor

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 71,823

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

yep. they can spew all the racist rhetoric possible. just either start or end with, but "I am not a racist" and doggonit, they just cant be criticized for being racist.

truly bizarre system, but we have seen it over and over on this forum.

10-13-2017 , 11:46 AM

#62239

+rep_lol

banned

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 14,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

This isn't a fair representation of my position at all as I've stated already itt.

As pointed out before, germany censors nazis and they seem to be doing far better wrt the effects than us not censoring them

10-13-2017 , 11:48 AM

#62240

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,445

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

This isn't a fair representation of my position at all as I've stated already itt.

You're right. You're definitely not in the chez school of being polite to racists to win them over. The problem is then, I don't see who you're disagreeing with so much for all the arguing going on in this thread. Since essentially no one has asked for the police to stop the neo-Nazis, why do you keep acting like they do? On the one hand you seem to really support calm, reason, and rationality, but on the other hand you are pretty feisty yourself sometimes. Oh well..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emerson

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

10-13-2017 , 11:49 AM

#62241

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,838

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Pretty much strawmanning. For most of the other side in this debate it's not about making the symbols illegal, but about calling them racists and such. If the you/chez/clovis position is that you don't even call them idiots, but you use your geometric logic to prove that they are idiots while you remain perfectly calm and follow Robert's rules, then you're still calling them idiots;* you're just being condescending at the same time.

*grammar nits: How would you punctuate that? comma? semi-colon? period and new sentence?

I don't consider people to be idiots just because I think they are wrong or have very different political views.

If it's not just 'tone' when some around here call so many people idiots then I simply disagree with them about it.

10-13-2017 , 11:54 AM

#62242

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

What if I insist on treating black people as people, and by insisting on that, it is sufficient to convince white supremacists that they are under attack, because what they want is better status than black people and to be allowed to treat them as not people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Let's hear them admit that and see how far it gets them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Uh, have you been paying attention? They have admitted it. The president has admitted it!

This was Wookie's standard, not mine.

No, Trump and his deplorables have not admitted this. Trump doesn't give a **** about Puerto Rico, and not unlikely for racial reasons, but that's not an admission that "blacks should not be treated as people". I'm also pretty certain Trump has a lower standard for how people should be treated in general.

As for your intractability, Fly, I guess you are just as entrenched as Archie Bunker, but I don't like giving up on people.

10-13-2017 , 11:57 AM

#62243

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by +rep_lol

As pointed out before, germany censors nazis and they seem to be doing far better wrt the effects than us not censoring them

well that's just the thing - we don't know how prominent they are in germany right now

the AfD made a major surge this past election

10-13-2017 , 12:03 PM

#62244

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,445

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Yeah I'm not the one shifting the goalposts here...

That's arguing in bad faith. Fly's post about a goalpost shift was obviously a good point.

10-13-2017 , 12:05 PM

#62245

Max Cut

Guest

Posts: n/a

Sweet super volcano of death, deliver us from pedantry.

10-13-2017 , 12:06 PM

#62246

Clovis8

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16,503

Quote:

Originally Posted by +rep_lol

As pointed out before, germany censors nazis and they seem to be doing far better wrt the effects than us not censoring them

No a month ago the AfD won 1/8 control of Germanys parliment. The AfD are literal neo-nazis.

10-13-2017 , 12:08 PM

#62247

Huehuecoyotl

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,257

Quote:

As a top executive at AccuWeather, Barry Myers has pushed for limits on the kinds of products that the National Weather Service offers to the public, saying they offered unfair competition to his industry.

Now, President Donald Trump's nomination of Myers to lead the weather service's parent agency could allow him to make those kinds of restrictions mandatory — to the benefit of his family-run forecasting company.

The AccuWeather CEO's nomination to head the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is stirring criticism from people who worry he would hobble the weather service, which provoked an industry backlash more than a decade ago by making hour-by-hour forecasts, cellphone alerts and other consumer-friendly data widely available online. A bill that Myers supported 12 years ago, sponsored by then-Sen. Rick Santorum, would have prohibited the agency from competing with private providers in most circumstances.

A window in the weird private market fetishism that infects Republicans. The government created an industry backlash by providing hour by hour updates? Like the government can't even improve its services least it puts a dent in some CEO's wallet. The guy doesn't even have any scientific experience

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...y-myers-243735

10-13-2017 , 12:09 PM

#62248

+rep_lol

banned

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 14,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

No a month ago the AfD won 1/8 control of Germanys parliment. The AfD are literal neo-nazis.

ya and the neo-nazis here in america have a full on sympathizer who might as well be a card carrying member based on his attitudes towards immigrants, black people, puerto ricans, etc, in the highest executive position of our government (as well as the top law enforcement official), and he appointed actual white supremacists/neo nazis like stephen miller and sebastian gorka to advise him, so i'd say they're still doing quite a bit better than we are.

i'd say that controlling the govt from the top down is a far worse result than being a fringe party in parliament

10-13-2017 , 12:12 PM

#62249

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,838

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

Exactly. I'm happy, even eager, to be engaged on the debate. I find that the valuble part of the thread. I actually love to be proven wrong and generally conceed when it happens, as I did with noodle last night. Perhaps I'm too slow to do so sometimes.

What I find tiresome and not worthy of our side is the personal attacks, mob mentally and constant relitigation of past events. If chez or I are as monumentally stupid as FLY seems to believe address our arguments. They should be very easy to refute.

I also think there is a dangerous tendency itt sometimes (to which I am guilty as well) at not allowing even the tiniest shred of dissent or disagreement with the group consensus. I would guess my views align something like 95% with most people itt, even fly. Yet some attack me like I'm some kind of trumpkin for wavering slightly from group consensus. This does not foster healthy debate where we can all learn from each other.

Lastly, every debate is not a derail. Discussions of free speech boundaries could not be more core to Trumps presidency.

Fly is opposed to reasonable political debate. No-one ever changes, it's all about power, arguments make no difference etc etc.

It's hard to credit how someone so intelligent can notice that power matters in political change and somehow conclude that therefore the arguments don't matter. And yet:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

This goes to Clovis and David too, but y'all may want to consult one(1) history book and discover that literally ****ing no issue has ever been resolved through logical and reasoned debate. Politics is about power and the exercise thereof.

10-13-2017 , 12:13 PM

#62250

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,445

Quote:

Originally Posted by +rep_lol

As pointed out before, germany censors nazis and they seem to be doing far better wrt the effects than us not censoring them

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

No a month ago the AfD won 1/8 control of Germanys parliment. The AfD are literal neo-nazis.

Instead of attributing the fall of Nazism in Germany to either reasoned discourse or censorship I wouldn't overlook the impact of killing millions of them, flattening many of their large cities, and hanging many of their leaders.

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