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Old 04-07-2019, 01:44 PM   #13401
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
As Iím sure you know there are studies citing numbers as high as 70% and others as low as 25%. Like all sex research it is plagued with reporting bias and definition bias.

My point is infidelity is very common. Itís a breech of trust for sure but the word immoral is very strong.

As for lying that is also a very odd bar. You have never lied about your sex life?

If lying about ones sex life precludes public office we better find a new political system because nobody will be able to work in this one.

Let me turn it around. Why does having an affair speak to ones ability to be a politician?
Let me answer that question with a question. What constitutes the ability to be a politician?
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:49 PM   #13402
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by bacalaopeace View Post
Not if there is near certainty that the spouse would never know.
Such a scenario would make the adulterer very susceptible to blackmail. So not ideal for a high level public servant.
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:51 PM   #13403
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Let me answer that question with a question. What constitutes the ability to be a politician?
99.9%
Broad Policy understanding
Management ability
Historical understanding
Economic understanding

0.01%
ďmoralityĒ
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:52 PM   #13404
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
What people do I their sex lives is completely irrelevant to the rest of their lives (assuming it is legal). This is such an obvious point so many people canít grasp.
This is silly. Sexual desire is one of our base drives and gets to the core of who someone is. It is interesting you cheerlead for infidelity but it is definitely a significant character defect.

People can and do have open relationships and agreements even while in another relationship. People who lie and deceive their significant other definitely possess traits, abilities and interests that make them less trustworthy in every other aspect of their lives.

Pretending like lying and deception doesnít potentially breed more lying and deception is simply off base.
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:54 PM   #13405
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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If someone is willing to break the trust of someone they are closer with than anyone else I think that is a reason to believe they might not be trustworthy with random people.

Cheat on your g/f in college, sure. Married and kids. Different imo.
I don't get this at all. As casual as college girlfriend may be, you're closer to her than a random. So, by the exact same logic if someone cheated on their college girlfriend that should also be reason they might not be trustworthy with randoms.
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:55 PM   #13406
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Meh, I was closer to my best friends than girls in college. I also think females will have a different perspective altogether about trusting dudes who cheat on their significant others. Need CN input.
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:57 PM   #13407
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
Corruption is obviously bad but who gives a **** how many affairs a politician has had.

Why play into their bull**** moral framework?
Why ignore the tax fraud and focus on the affair? Who cares? It was mentioned off-hand.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:01 PM   #13408
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Having an affair is immoral, as it's a betrayal of the arrangement you made with someone. If the pol was openly polyamorous or something, that would be different.
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Originally Posted by Johnny Truant View Post
It may be irrelevant, but the ****er is in that video talking about how the vows soldiers make to serve their country and the commitment to serve the ****ing military should mean they morally should not ask for too much healthcare. He obviously pantomimes traditional values and “sacred” vows, but trots them out as weapons against others.
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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
The majority of people will cheat on their partner at least once in life. Odd to label something like this immoral.

Obviously it’s a breech of trust but not one that has any bearing at all to a politicians fit for duty or job performance.

Americans are so insanely obsessed with policing the sex lives of other people. It’s crazy!
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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
More than 50% of people cheat? Really? Got a cite or just your feels?
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Originally Posted by SuperUberBob View Post
If a person treats an intimate partner with disrespect, what reason do you have to believe that they'll treat their constituents differently?
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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
I think Clovis thinks we are kink shaming someone for lying to their partners instead of recognizing that it is rare for someone to behave one way in their personal life and another way in their public life.
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
any person who secretly cheats on a spouse who would have left them had they known is highly immoral because they deprived them of information that would have led them to seek a different life than what they have
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Originally Posted by bacalaopeace View Post
That I cheat on my wife doesn't mean that I treat my employees badly.
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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
But it means you aren't as trustworthy as someone who doesn't treat their employees OR spouse badly.
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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Cheating on a spouse is obviously immoral. 50% of people doing it hardly means it's strange to call it immoral. 50% of people do a lot of immoral things. And why can't we try to elect leaders who are less immoral than average? (I don't think we can accomplish that, but trying isn't a bad idea.)
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Originally Posted by bacalaopeace View Post
Not if there is near certainty that the spouse would never know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bacalaopeace View Post
While I don't agree that the bolded is obvious, I think the rest is correct. There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of people who would make good presidents, and we certainly ought to be able to try to choose one who generates minimal doubts about integrity and the like.
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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Let me answer that question with a question. What constitutes the ability to be a politician?
etc etc etc

And this is how we get completely derailed by one bad faith poster into endlessly debating a molehill (Hogseth's fidelity) while ignoring the mountain next to it (Trump's pick for VA secretary is a tax cheat who thinks vets shoudn't rely on VA-supplied healthcare).

It's like the bird that pretends to be injured and leads the predator away from the nest, until the predator is far enough away it's forgotten where it first saw the bird.

Eyes on the prize - don't get sucked into ikes-esque derails.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:03 PM   #13409
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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Cheaters playing their hands face up itt

All of Trumpís picks are horrible, the only ones that need to be assessed are the ones that make sense at first.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:05 PM   #13410
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Melkerson View Post
These things are often described as "affairs" by outsiders, press, etc. because they're assuming by default a traditional relationship.



There are lots of things between traditional and open marriage. I met a guy who claims that he and his spouse are fine with "cheating" as long as no one else they know finds out about it. I'm not sure I'd call that open.







I'm not going to bat for him. He's a garbage human. Affair or not.
Fair points. I did think of the media misrepresenting it based on limited knowledge of the situation after I posted. I appreciate the perspective.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:06 PM   #13411
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
99.9%
Broad Policy understanding
Management ability
Historical understanding
Economic understanding

0.01%
ďmoralityĒ
Ok, none of those things have anything to do with executing any particular policy. So, just check their test scores I guess. Sklansky might like that approach.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:07 PM   #13412
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency



Killdeer are funny.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:10 PM   #13413
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

I had several birds doing that to me out hiking last week. They don't pretend to have a broken wing, but they hop along the trail for a few dozen yards - cleverly leading me away from their nest, then eventually break off and circle back.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:21 PM   #13414
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Ok, none of those things have anything to do with executing any particular policy. So, just check their test scores I guess. Sklansky might like that approach.
Do you think morality is the main driving force behind executing a particular policy? I'm pretty sure that many* (if not most) politicians just espouse the policies of their team and then they execute those because that's what will get them elected the next time around.

I'm sure it's involved to some extent, but I suspect the magnitude is smaller than you think.

*Definitely not all, though. There are quite a few exceptions.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:54 PM   #13415
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
etc etc etc

And this is how we get completely derailed by one bad faith poster into endlessly debating a molehill (Hogseth's fidelity) while ignoring the mountain next to it (Trump's pick for VA secretary is a tax cheat who thinks vets shoudn't rely on VA-supplied healthcare).

It's like the bird that pretends to be injured and leads the predator away from the nest, until the predator is far enough away it's forgotten where it first saw the bird.

Eyes on the prize - don't get sucked into ikes-esque derails.
Are you saying Clovis is really trying to protect tax cheats?

Makes sense.
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Old 04-07-2019, 02:56 PM   #13416
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Melkerson View Post
Do you think morality is the main driving force behind executing a particular policy? I'm pretty sure that many* (if not most) politicians just espouse the policies of their team and then they execute those because that's what will get them elected the next time around.

I'm sure it's involved to some extent, but I suspect the magnitude is smaller than you think.

*Definitely not all, though. There are quite a few exceptions.
No, I think most politicians are just trying to get and keep their jobs. That doesn't mean I don't think traits like honesty and considering other people's interests in your actions aren't important factors in selecting who you vote for and I think infidelity touches on both of those. I said in one of those posts that I don't think we actually can get better than average morality from politicians on average, but I think it helps to try.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:15 PM   #13417
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Ok, none of those things have anything to do with executing any particular policy. So, just check their test scores I guess. Sklansky might like that approach.
Also, right or wrong none of those things have anything to do with how they are elected or appointed in many cases.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:40 PM   #13418
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by weeeez View Post
you have a way to twisting my words.
I didn't say I would trust MORE.
Also I didn't say sexual OR OTHERWISE.
My point was about sexuality only, as in passion vs raison.
Take out that layer and humans are capable of overcoming mountains with whatever arbitrary principles they agreed on.

cliffs:wouldn't trust less or more someone who cheated on his wife vs someone who didn't regarding a non sexual issue.

edit:and I think clovis is right.America has such a problem with sex , it's one of the most important issues of this country (and I'd argue you the world might be a better place if americans solved it).
I disagree that people can have different characters depending on what part of their life we are examining. What I hear you saying is that what someone does in their personal life has no bearing on how they behave in their professional life. I disagree.

I don't think is because of the sex, I think if you make a promise or commitment or whatever you want to call it you should keep it. Sure, there are nuances and no one knows what's going on inside the relationship except for the participants, because of that I'm not giving a cheater the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:47 PM   #13419
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
As I’m sure you know there are studies citing numbers as high as 70% and others as low as 25%. Like all sex research it is plagued with reporting bias and definition bias.
No, I don't know, that's why when you made a claim that sounds ridiculous I asked you for a source, not to just think harder about it.

Quote:
My point is infidelity is very common. It’s a breech of trust for sure but the word immoral is very strong.
I don't find the statement that infidelity is immoral to be very strong. It seems pretty axiomatic to me. When would doing something you know is going to cause other people pain for your own pleasure be moral?

Quote:
As for lying that is also a very odd bar. You have never lied about your sex life?

If lying about ones sex life precludes public office we better find a new political system because nobody will be able to work in this one.
We're not talking about lying about one's sex life. We're talking about cheating on your spouse. If you can't see the difference there I don't know what to tell you other than, you're wrong.

Quote:
Let me turn it around. Why does having an affair speak to ones ability to be a politician?
Politicians are expected to speak the truth. Politicians are expected to display the values they legislate for. Neither of these things is consistent with having an affair.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:49 PM   #13420
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by dth123451 View Post
Are you ever not wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
Iím wrong lots, just not about this.
LOL, nope.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:49 PM   #13421
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Lol suzzer. I’m bad faith posting and you pretend I’m supporting the scum bag when literally the first post I made said the corruption is obviously the issue.

I know it’s really really hard to parse out one issue from three that are stated but try really hard. I think you can do it.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:51 PM   #13422
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:52 PM   #13423
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

It’s interesting how this thread is so liberal with everything but sex then it’s lock step with boiler plate conservatives.
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:57 PM   #13424
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
It’s interesting how this thread is so liberal with everything but sex then it’s lock step with boiler plate conservatives.
TIL this thread is in favor of morality laws and banning sex work and the like, according to Clovis. We're boiler plate conservatives on sex!
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Old 04-07-2019, 03:57 PM   #13425
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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