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Old 03-28-2019, 04:17 PM   #12626
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
The only people in elected office nationally talking about completely open borders with no restrictions are Republicans claiming the Democrats want that. Democrats overall support more legal immigration, not just letting anyone in without so much as checking on who they are.
And microbet and that other dude, who I was replying to when I said I didn't think that totally open borders jive with a more generous welfare state? Which I know is a position that microbet also holds? I mean you seem to acknowledge that holding both positions at once creates some challenging policy issues.

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So your argument is that a generous welfare state would be unfair to guest workers, thus we should not let them in at all in the first place? Or just not have any welfare state at all? Ah, yes, the classic Republican argument technique: we can't do ANYTHING until we know EVERYTHING... We can't do ANYTHING if we don't know the solution will be perfectly fair for EVERYONE.

God forbid we make solid incremental improvements and adjust and adapt along the way to improve them... Because it's not like the GOP is using this line of argument to say that we need to go farther and do more right off the bat to make things better, they're using the argument to argue against doing anything at all.

It's disingenuous, as usual.
I mean yeah, the position you're hallucinating I am arguing for is highly disingenuous, good job sniffing that out. My actual position is imo less disingenuous -- I think we should have a generous but limited guest worker program with some path to citizenship, increase somewhat the burden on employers to make sure that the folks they're hiring are actually here legally, and implement a one time amnesty that would put everyone working illegally currently into the guest worker program. And I support Medicare for all, probably even for guest workers who under the reformed system would pay payroll taxes. The tricky part would be regulating the number of guest workers -- really my only point is that you can't just let anyone in the country who shows up at the border. Which is only a point brought up by microbet, that other guy I was responding to and Republicans arguing in bad faith about imagined political opponent's positions. But **** man, it's not my fault we had two dudes arguing for totally open borders itt. Bring it up with them!
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:24 PM   #12627
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Paul D View Post
HEY GAIZ. DONT EVEN TALK ABOUT THINGS YOU CANT PROVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!

I MEAN BARR A TRUMP APOINTEE IS TOTALLY APPROPRIATE PERZON TO DECIDE THA MATTER

BTW I LOVE GG AND TOTALLY AM NOT COCERN TROLLING
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Originally Posted by Effen View Post
lots of things are totally not ok and im totally not good with them but also stop talking about them immediately

A+, totally not hand waving
you guys can talk about whatever you like. Have at it, keep talking about Don meeting with Russians till 2023 for all I care. Nicholas asked how I could hand wave away these points, and I answered. It's not hand waving, it's about what can be proven to be criminal acts. Which to me seems a fairly reasonable standard for judging the outcome of a criminal investigation? But what do I know.
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:38 PM   #12628
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Can you prove that? Or if not, can you give arguments that 75% of Ivy League graduates would agree were almost 100% persuasive?
this guy wrote a book?
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:38 PM   #12629
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
And microbet and that other dude, who I was replying to when I said I didn't think that totally open borders jive with a more generous welfare state? Which I know is a position that microbet also holds? I mean you seem to acknowledge that holding both positions at once creates some challenging policy issues.
I think microbet is probably in a very small minority of Dems on this issue, but it's pretty typical right wing strategy to try to paint all Democrats as holding whatever position the left-most 10% holds on any given issue.

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
I mean yeah, the position you're hallucinating I am arguing for is highly disingenuous, good job sniffing that out. My actual position is imo less disingenuous -- I think we should have a generous but limited guest worker program with some path to citizenship, increase somewhat the burden on employers to make sure that the folks they're hiring are actually here legally, and implement a one time amnesty that would put everyone working illegally currently into the guest worker program. And I support Medicare for all, probably even for guest workers who under the reformed system would pay payroll taxes. The tricky part would be regulating the number of guest workers -- really my only point is that you can't just let anyone in the country who shows up at the border. Which is only a point brought up by microbet, that other guy I was responding to and Republicans arguing in bad faith about imagined political opponent's positions. But **** man, it's not my fault we had two dudes arguing for totally open borders itt. Bring it up with them!
Ah, so you're one of those Medicare for All Republicans who wants to expand legal immigration. That's awesome, Keeed. So when's the last time you voted for a candidate for Congress or President who supported any of that stuff?

Disingenuous bull****, all of it, always.
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:39 PM   #12630
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

I'm not a Republican? I've never been a Republican.
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:41 PM   #12631
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

I voted for Gary Johnson!!!!!

- every dip**** on the internet
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:52 PM   #12632
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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if any other old man was talking about "fake news" and saying one day he will tell us all "the secret" we would get him help for dementia.

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ffs stop talking about closing the border, do you know how many people commute to/from work every day across the border? this would hurt the US way more than mexico

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In a collective sense, yes--touché. But I tried to stop this. I've known he was a lying clown for thirty years. People didn't listen to me, though.

If he is still standing in 2020 and wants to be re-elected, I guess I will have to speak a little more vehemently.

(Confession: the first time I came into this thread and read realDonaldTrump tweets, I thought they were a parody/joke of some sort. It is sad that they are REAL!)
i'm one of those rare millennials without a twitter and I thought the same thing
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:58 PM   #12633
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
I'm not a Republican? I've never been a Republican.
Ah yes, the pulling teeth method of correcting someones supposedly false assumptions about you.

Totally not disingenuous btw.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:01 PM   #12634
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Old 03-28-2019, 05:03 PM   #12635
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
I think microbet is probably in a very small minority of Dems on this issue, but it's pretty typical right wing strategy to try to paint all Democrats as holding whatever position the left-most 10% holds on any given issue.



Ah, so you're one of those Medicare for All Republicans who wants to expand legal immigration. That's awesome, Keeed. So when's the last time you voted for a candidate for Congress or President who supported any of that stuff?

Disingenuous bull****, all of it, always.
I mean I was rooting for Bernie against Hilldawg, I posted in this forum on the day of AOC's primary victory cheering for her, I bet champstark fifty bucks that Doug Jones would beat Moore and then had him donate my winnings to his choice of the ACLU or Planned Parenthood. My political views are largely similar to Glenn Greenwald's with perhaps a few more residual traditional libertarian views than he holds. That's why I like Yang as well -- he talks a lot about how Medicare for All and universal basic income would free up folks to take entrepreneurial risks. Milton Friedman made similar points. But if you want to believe I'm lying about all this and actually a Republican go right ahead, just do me a favor and stop replying to me.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:03 PM   #12636
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Keep your hands and feet inside the ride vehicle! Incoming Trumpbot tweet on TRUMP saving the Special Olympics!

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Old 03-28-2019, 05:07 PM   #12637
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:07 PM   #12638
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

see if it wasn't for Trump there would be no special olympics!
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:08 PM   #12639
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
Not sure what I'm hand waving away. The question isn't are these things "OK". There's lots of things about the Trump presidency that aren't "OK". The question is were the things that Schiff listed criminal. And if Barr's summary of Mueller's report can be believed then an extensive investigation was not able to establish the criminality of the acts that Schiff listed. And so, all right, Don Jr met with some Russians? If it can't be shown that he broke any laws when doing so then who cares? Let's charge some folks with conspiring with the Russians or move on. Same thing goes for all the other items on Schiff's list. If it can't be proven that the things he thinks "aren't OK" are actually criminal acts then it's time to move on to other issues and put this two and a half year investigation behind us.
That's a pretty big "if" that you just glossed over.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:12 PM   #12640
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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That's a pretty big "if" that you just glossed over.
On the issue of obstruction, sure. But all of Schiff's points were about conspiring with Russia, and Barr would have to be a total maniac to mislead the public that Mueller didn't find sufficient evidence to support criminal charges on any of those points.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:13 PM   #12641
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

thanks to our Supreme Leader Donald J Trump the Special Olympics were saved from Destruction by the Democrats and Liberal Fake News Media! They will be the Biggest and Greatest Special Olympics ever!!
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:13 PM   #12642
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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I think microbet is probably in a very small minority of Dems on this issue...
When essentially given a choice between D and R I vote D, but I'm not a Dem. Since I'm a hippie anarcho-socialist I don't like labels and don't join organizations, but there you have it. I don't have any illusion that a lot of people agree with me or think a Dem candidate for POTUS should utter a word of support for open borders.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:18 PM   #12643
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Barr would never cover up a report that McConnell and other Republicritters have all intentions of blocking from seeing the light of day. Nope never. We should just totally take GG's advice and be frands with Putin bc nukes are scary instead of investigating the matter further.........

Maybe Keeed really is Greenwald lol
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:24 PM   #12644
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Keep your hands and feet inside the ride vehicle! Incoming Trumpbot tweet on TRUMP saving the Special Olympics!

Eric Trump is behind this.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:35 PM   #12645
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
I'm not a Republican? I've never been a Republican.
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Originally Posted by dth123451 View Post
I voted for Gary Johnson!!!!!

- every dip**** on the internet
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I mean I was rooting for Bernie against Hilldawg,
And then voted for who in the general? And I'm guessing you weren't a two-time Obama voter, either. And on that note, when's the last time you voted in a Democratic primary?

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
My political views are largely similar to Glenn Greenwald's with perhaps a few more residual traditional libertarian views than he holds. That's why I like Yang as well -- he talks a lot about how Medicare for All and universal basic income would free up folks to take entrepreneurial risks. Milton Friedman made similar points. But if you want to believe I'm lying about all this and actually a Republican go right ahead, just do me a favor and stop replying to me.
Yeah, I mean, I think you're always being pretty disingenuous. Fortunately, it's a free forum, and as long as I don't insult you, I'm welcome to keep correcting your disingenuous BS whenever you post it.

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When essentially given a choice between D and R I vote D, but I'm not a Dem. Since I'm a hippie anarcho-socialist I don't like labels and don't join organizations, but there you have it. I don't have any illusion that a lot of people agree with me or think a Dem candidate for POTUS should utter a word of support for open borders.
Yeah, sure, and Keeed's not a Republican!

I mean I get the distinction you're making and all, so maybe it's more accurate to just say you're liberal rather than identify you with a party. I certainly hope you're registered to vote in the Dem primaries though!

I think a lot of people agree with you on the morality of open borders, but in terms of actually implementing policy, I don't personally think it's possible/realistic, or that it would work well. That said, I'm for significantly expanding legal immigration and removing barriers to immigration - I just want to stop folks, find out who they are, do some appropriate vetting, and then welcome them in, and then limit that to an amount that we can process in terms of both vetting and integrating into our economy. I wouldn't want to allow an unlimited number of people in each year, to the extent that we were welcoming people in without any opportunities for them economically.

I also think that there's a reasonable likelihood that in our lifetime, we're going to need to take in perhaps 100 million+ climate refugees, or face complete chaos along our border, and we should certainly take in as many as we can and share that responsibility with the rest of the western world and big polluters... So we better get our system reformed to be able to handle that challenge.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:38 PM   #12646
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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On the issue of obstruction, sure. But all of Schiff's points were about conspiring with Russia, and Barr would have to be a total maniac to mislead the public that Mueller didn't find sufficient evidence to support criminal charges on any of those points.
Barr would have to be a total maniac to suggest a bunch of presidential pardons to help shut down a special counsel investigation and protect the president, too, right?

Note that Barr specifically referenced colluding with the Russian government.

Also note that a lot of the stuff Schiff listed could be done in a way that was not technically illegal, but of course runs totally against any sort of American ideals about proper behavior by our elected leaders and those running for office. Stuff that Schiff should certainly not be okay with, nor should anyone. Stuff that should lead to changes in our laws because it SHOULD be illegal, even if it isn't already.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:46 PM   #12647
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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And then voted for who in the general? And I'm guessing you weren't a two-time Obama voter, either. And on that note, when's the last time you voted in a Democratic primary?



Yeah, I mean, I think you're always being pretty disingenuous. Fortunately, it's a free forum, and as long as I don't insult you, I'm welcome to keep correcting your disingenuous BS whenever you post it.
How in the world am I being disingenuous? You don't believe the political opinions I'm expressing are genuine? How did you manage to figure this out?
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:49 PM   #12648
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

ffs it's always the same people who keep quoting keeeeeeeeeeed

Spoiler:
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:55 PM   #12649
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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I mean I get the distinction you're making and all, so maybe it's more accurate to just say you're liberal rather than identify you with a party. I certainly hope you're registered to vote in the Dem primaries though!
I've never and don't plan on registering as a Dem. In California the Democratic primary is semi-open and I went to a fair amount of trouble in 2016 to vote for Bernie (had to go to the county offices) and I'll do it again if necessary.

Quote:
I think a lot of people agree with you on the morality of open borders, but in terms of actually implementing policy, I don't personally think it's possible/realistic, or that it would work well.
Maybe and if I were dictator I wouldn't do anything huge all at once, but it worked pretty well in America up until the Chinese exclusion act.

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That said, I'm for significantly expanding legal immigration and removing barriers to immigration - I just want to stop folks, find out who they are, do some appropriate vetting, and then welcome them in, and then limit that to an amount that we can process in terms of both vetting and integrating into our economy. I wouldn't want to allow an unlimited number of people in each year, to the extent that we were welcoming people in without any opportunities for them economically.
I suppose, but that's very theoretical. Immigration from Mexico was very large in like 2000, but from 2008 until now has been the other direction or close to net zero. The economic opportunities thing takes care of itself.

Quote:
I also think that there's a reasonable likelihood that in our lifetime, we're going to need to take in perhaps 100 million+ climate refugees, or face complete chaos along our border, and we should certainly take in as many as we can and share that responsibility with the rest of the western world and big polluters... So we better get our system reformed to be able to handle that challenge.
Maybe. I don't think that many of the climate refugees will be coming to the United States though. I can't afford to go to Bangladesh and I don't think many Bangladeshi refugees can afford to come here.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:56 PM   #12650
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

If anyone wants to meet up and go protest this, I'm down to fly to El Paso whenever. If we could get 15-20 people, we could possibly get some news coverage and I'm also down to buy food and water and pass it to them through the fence and dare ICE to arrest us if they try to make us stop.

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