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Old 03-27-2019, 04:09 PM   #12526
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
There are valid concerns about having a relatively open immigration policy combined with strong welfare programs, but these concerns are almost never brought up in good faith by the right. While you seem to be presenting it in good faith in this post, I don't think I could characterize your concerns over exploitation of immigrants as being brought up in good faith.

Currently we tacitly accept illegal immigrants, allow (mostly rich) people to pay them less than minimum wage without really going after them for breaking minimum wage laws, then require the undocumented immigrants to pay taxes (which about half do) while not allowing them to collect the vast majority of federal benefits, even if they pay taxes. Even legal immigrants have to pay into programs they cannot collect from.

So unless you advocate for wholesale changes to end that exploitation, the only valid question you can ask about immigrant exploitation is whether or not a reform proposal is better or worse than the current system.

With that in mind, accepting far more legal immigrants and granting unlimited temporary work visas (limited only by demand), while actually enforcing minimum wage laws, should greatly reduce the exploitation.

You could then move forward on improving welfare programs with very little concern over "open borders" and come up with a timeline for legal immigrants to get citizenship. In fact, you could even explore whether or not the enforcement of minimum wage and taxing of all those workers could allow you to establish more barebones welfare programs for the documented temporary workers and legal immigrants who are not yet citizens. I have no clue on the numbers, but it could certainly be investigated.

The main downside would be increased labor costs being passed on to consumers, but of course nobody can argue on that basis while also bringing up the evil of worker exploitation.

These tradeoffs, morally and in terms of policy, are why this is such a challenging issue.
Our current system, where the rich exploit the undocumented immigrants is immoral, yes. I agree that a generous but regulated guest worker program is a good possible solution to the status quo, but I don't think that it should be anyone who shows up at our border wanting to come in. We would want to control the numbers and check the backgrounds of those who come. But I do think that the more generous the welfare state is the more problematic the guest worker situation is; if there is no path to citizenship you're creating a permanent underclass with little to no chance for social mobility, if the path to citizenship is too quick you risk overwhelming the welfare state with a flood of low skill workers from the poorest countries who would quite rationally try to come to improve their lives.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:21 PM   #12527
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, regulated borders are like fleas arguing over who owns the dog. All we are saying is that we are in a good spot and because we were here first (not really) we are willing to imprison, deport, and if they resist, shoot anyone else who comes here that we don't want. America is not your house.

I'll accept someone from Guatemala coming in freely just as readily as I will someone from Ohio and believe me, California is pretty overrun with people from other states.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:23 PM   #12528
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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40% of the country: I want that plan that's the biggest and best and cheapest.
"And that other guy has 'butt' in his name lolol nice name you fruit"
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:24 PM   #12529
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Mulvaney convinced Trump to back Obamacare repeal over objections from Pence, others

Mostly posting because it's amazing how little self-awareness they have about the GOP's health care platform, and what voters think of it:



jacknodding.gif





Good luck with that!


There are few things I can think of that would be worse for Trump's 2020 election chances than turning it into a referendum on healthcare. Like, he campaigned in 2016 on "we're gonna cover everyone", good lord PLEASE keep telling us that in 2020 as you...actually just took away millions of people's healthcare in the intervening 4 years.
Lo ****ing L, going hard in the paint with "Our new plan will give you blowjobs and wash your car at the same time!" Without a single word written out on your plan is a bold move, Cotton.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:29 PM   #12530
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Bull****ting has worked great for him for 72 years, why stop now?
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:33 PM   #12531
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

These guys keep getting away with it, it’s stupid Walter White. They’re totally divorced from the concept of negative outcomes.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:49 PM   #12532
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:53 PM   #12533
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Yes our immigration policies are to the left of most developed (read: places you’d actually want to live) countries but we kinda created that brand ourselves
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:01 PM   #12534
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Obvi
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:18 PM   #12535
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:41 PM   #12536
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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2020 debate...

Trump: Now that we've gotten rid of Obummercare, I've got the best plan that's going to cover the most people the cheapest and the best. We're going to make healthcare great again!

Buttigieg (holds up a bill): Here's my bill, where's yours?

Trump: It's the biggest and the best and the cheapest and we're going to save the most money ever and cover everyone.

Buttigieg: Cool, where's the bill? Here's mine...
Sounds about right. Trump then wins in a landslide.
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:46 PM   #12537
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Did anyone post that Deustche bank turned over financial records of Trumps to Maxine Water?
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:48 PM   #12538
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Dead girl, live boy.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:16 PM   #12539
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
2020 debate...

Trump: Now that we've gotten rid of Obummercare, I've got the best plan that's going to cover the most people the cheapest and the best. We're going to make healthcare great again!

Buttigieg (holds up a bill): Here's my bill, where's yours?

Trump: It's the biggest and the best and the cheapest and we're going to save the most money ever and cover everyone.

Buttigieg: Cool, where's the bill? Here's mine...
Narrator: Trump won.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:17 PM   #12540
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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have to say, special counsel to look at the FISA process would be pretty good
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:27 PM   #12541
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
40% of the country: I want that plan that's the biggest and best and cheapest.
Goddammit this reply is perfect. I don't think a snarky internet post has ever made me want to punch a wall this much.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:38 PM   #12542
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
Axioms like "open borders"?

But non-snarkily, the most compelling argument for Medicare for all is that most (all?) other wealthy countries have implemented a similar system, have better health outcomes and spend less on healthcare. That's a compelling argument! OK. But then apply that same logic to immigration. Do any comparable countries have open borders? Except within the EU, they don't -- and the EU only has open borders among member nations, all of which have similar welfare states and generally relatively similar per capita GDP levels.
The snark is fine there. I know I'm being axiomatic about open borders. I don't absolutely necessarily think borders have to be 100% open no matter what and unqualified citizenship is immediate, but I just want to make the point that I think border restrictions are immoral and it's not only a matter of finding the best policy. I think there should be a higher standard, a very compelling reason, to restrict movement like that. I know that's not a common position. Most people are wrong.

I'm willing to have a lower standard of free medical care to all if that's necessary, but I don't think it would be. I don't think immigration makes the country less able to provide medical care for all. I think it makes the country better able to do it. You can't figure that out by just subtracting welfare payments from taxes paid. Immigrants contribute to the economy primarily in other ways than their tax payments. I also don't think that free medical care in the USA would cause hordes of people to come here that we couldn't handle. If every single person from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador (the places that are really the issue now) came here, that'd be good for us, not bad.

I also wouldn't try to do Universal Health Care all at once, so it would be something where you can see the results and adjust policy.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:43 PM   #12543
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

And we already essentially have universal health care, it just sucks. It's show up at an emergency room and leave with medical bills you can't pay. Die in debt.
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:12 PM   #12544
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Steve Bannon is doing great guys

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Old 03-27-2019, 09:19 PM   #12545
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

That has to be photoshopped.
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:20 PM   #12546
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

no, just alcoholism
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:32 PM   #12547
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

This is pretty awesome

http://digg.com/2019/ice-arrest-driver
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:39 PM   #12548
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Old 03-27-2019, 10:41 PM   #12549
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Old 03-27-2019, 11:38 PM   #12550
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

I don’t even know who that is in the video, but I am getting great pleasure never clicking play to find out what his stupid ****ing take is. Mildly healing pleasure.
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