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Old 01-04-2019, 06:48 PM   #1151
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Not having a wall is more important to me than DACA. Giving any credence to the wall demeans us as a country, more so than something like DACA builds us up.
Would you feel this way if you were a Dreamer?
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:48 PM   #1152
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by d10 View Post
-rep is trying to slip the bolded by because deep down he understands that the key to turning a negotiation into a political win is to force the Republicans to block popular demands. It was not a mistake or abbreviation on his part to describe the Republican demands in terms of both reasonableness and popularity while subtly holding Democrat proposals to a different standard. He's reframing the argument so that people who overlook the shift are more likely to believe that he has a reasonable argument. He only cares about winning the debate though, not about developing a consensus on the issues through a good faith discussion. He's not worth engaging.



Also I should point out this is the generous interpretation. The other option is that he has no idea what he's talking about. His highlights over the last page are emphatically denying making strawman arguments, then making the strawiest of arguments in all caps in the very next sentence, and playing dumb regarding the legislative process as if a clean CR -> negotiated funding bill for the wall + huge Democratic priorities is impossible or somehow a loss for Democrats if the negotiated bill never happens and it ends with a clean CR. Of course if this is the case he's still not worth engaging.


When d10 is on your side in an argument. You lost.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:54 PM   #1153
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
These aren't literally people with a gun to their heads. Every negotiation between the president and congress isn't a hostage situation.

If anything it's the other way around because the wall hurts no one directly, whereas DACA would help a ton of people tremendously.


Heís holding federal workers hostage.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:58 PM   #1154
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

If you won't give 5B for full, completely guaranteed protections for the million+ Dreamers, then you are a PoS, period.

Last edited by AllTheCheese; 01-04-2019 at 07:00 PM. Reason: And also bad at politics
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:08 PM   #1155
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

For those in the know, how does the shutdown affect the IRS? I know it affects its ability to issue refunds, but ehat about things like enforcing wage garnishments, collecting taxes, and completing audits?
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:08 PM   #1156
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Dem should absolutely trade 5 billion for DACA. Just a year ago they were ready to give Trump 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA which Trump rejected.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:17 PM   #1157
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
If you won't give 5B for full, completely guaranteed protections for the million+ Dreamers, then you are a PoS, period.


Counterpoint


**** trump and is KKK Nazi memorial wall
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:17 PM   #1158
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by mather_2020 View Post
Dem should absolutely trade 5 billion for DACA. Just a year ago they were ready to give Trump 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA which Trump rejected.


You realize the same people building a giant wall to keep brown people out arenít going to make a deal to let brown people stay.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:19 PM   #1159
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
A lot of people are suggesting that because the wall costs up to 100 billion that giving him 5 billion is no big deal, it won't do anything and therefore we should use it as leverage to try and get something else passed.
These people are smart.

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
I think the danger in giving 1 dollar specifically for the wall is that it legitimizes it and is the wedge for the next time he tries to get money for it.
It doesn't legitimize anything. Also, that's great if he wants to play this game again and make huge concessions for magic beans and a wall that isn't going to be built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Not having a wall is more important to me than DACA. Giving any credence to the wall demeans us as a country, more so than something like DACA builds us up.
The wall is not ever going to actually happen even if Dems cave entirely and just give him $20B.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:22 PM   #1160
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Dumb question:

Given it's a new session does the bill the previous House passed still require approval from both chambers?
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:22 PM   #1161
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
You realize the same people building a giant wall to keep brown people out arenít going to make a deal to let brown people stay.
1. Trump might just be that dumb and persuadable. Don't overestimate him.

2. OK, fine. We are no worse for offering it.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:24 PM   #1162
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

I think some people itt really underestimate the power of the intangible and symbolism in politics. The wall is another example of this.

Sure it won’t do anything functional so why not let him build it for DACA, single payer etc?

The reason is the wall’s symbolism is far more toxic than its ability to stop people from crossing the border.

As was said earlier itt, the wall is a massive anti-Statue of Liberty which if built screams to the whole world America is a place for white people and all non-white should not come.

You think a few confederate statues are bad try one that is 2,000 miles long!

I say don’t give them 1c for the wall ever.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:29 PM   #1163
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
I think some people itt really underestimate the power of the intangible and symbolism in politics. The wall is another example of this.

Sure it wonít do anything functional so why not let him build it for DACA, single payer etc?

The reason is the wallís symbolism is far more toxic than its ability to stop people from crossing the border.

As was said earlier itt, the wall is a massive anti-Statue of Liberty which if built screams to the whole world America is a place for white people and all non-white should not come.

You think a few confederate statues are bad try one that is 2,000 miles long!

I say donít give them 1c for the wall ever.
And you're underestimating how ****ty it is to be in legal limbo as a Dreamer.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:30 PM   #1164
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

No the symbolism of having a partial wall, some of which already exists, is not more toxic than the reality of hundreds of thousands of people who have grown up in this country being deported to an essentially foreign land.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:34 PM   #1165
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

What do you think is symbolized by daily news stories of productive, law-abiding members of American society being detained and deported for no reason other than overstaying a visa fifteen years ago or crossing the border illegally with their mommy as a toddler? That has zero symbolic impact?
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:47 PM   #1166
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by eyebooger View Post
And you're underestimating how ****ty it is to be in legal limbo as a Dreamer.
Dreamers can be fixed another way or in 2 years. You canít unbuild a 2,000 mile monument to white supremacy.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:51 PM   #1167
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

The stupid ****ing wall is never getting built, ever. Come on people.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:51 PM   #1168
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by GMan42 View Post
I could easily picture them pissing $5b away without a single steel slat getting stuck int the ground. It's seriously nothing.
Iím projecting about 50 million dollars per foot of wall.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:59 PM   #1169
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WillieWin? View Post
Dumb question:

Given it's a new session does the bill the previous House passed still require approval from both chambers?
It's a fresh start, old bills die.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:09 PM   #1170
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by dth123451 View Post
The stupid ****ing wall is never getting built, ever. Come on people.
At this point I dont even know what the ****ing wall is anymore. Trump has talked about anything from a few miles of steel slats to a full on great wall of china operation across our southern border. The great wall is off the table, but we could be drawing live to some token bull**** on the other end that trump will claim victory for.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:21 PM   #1171
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
For those of you in the **** you crowd, how long do you think passing things like DACA/M4A would take with zero votes from Republicans and the right leaning democrats? You would need 60 progressive senate seats, a house majority and president. I don't see 60 senate seats happening again for a very very long time. Maybe not again in our lifetimes with the structural advantages built in there.
Not to completely change the subject but I agree with the above, and wonder at this point, if the Dems take control of the Senate in a 2020 Blue wave, why should they not just alter the rules and eliminate the filibuster? This is exactly what Republicans would do in this situation and IMO the right move. Dems are always afraid about doing stuff like this because "OMG what would happen next time Repubs take win an election?" (hint they will eliminate it anyway when it is to their advantage), or even worse "OMG we have to appear to be the reasonable adults in every debate?"

Filibuster isn't gaining the Dems anything anyway. It didn't stop the tax cut. It didn't save the ACA. It can't be used to stop unreasonable or rapist Supreme Court justices. I would rather live in a world where whoever can take all three branches gets their policies and has to live with the results. Without filibuster they can eliminate all this stupid drama over debt ceiling or funding government when they are in power.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:21 PM   #1172
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by Clovis8 View Post
Dreamers can be fixed another way or in 2 years. You can’t unbuild a 2,000 mile monument to white supremacy.
Wat. 5B doesn't buy you 2000 miles, and yes, of course you can unbuild it. It's a ****ing wall. You may want to look into this place called Berlin.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:35 PM   #1173
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
Wat. 5B doesn't buy you 2000 miles, and yes, of course you can unbuild it. It's a ****ing wall. You may want to look into this place called Berlin.
Dude this fence is DYI so I can build the wall myself for 1.7 billion. I wonít be getting labor so it might take 200 years but Suck it libs.

https://www.wayfair.com/outdoor/hd0/...CABEgKvlvD_BwE
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:36 PM   #1174
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
There is one factor that people are missing. Considering that those who are against the wall are against it to a large extent because of what it symbolizes. Which is that the people of the world are pretty well aware of what is going on here and would actually not be that horrified if a partial wall was built if Democrats extracted major concessions for it.

I once had an argument with a friend who was bragging about a high stakes gambler he knew who refused to jump into a Las Vegas hotel pool with all his clothes on in front of all the guests, even for the $100,000 the other gambler was offering him. He didn't understand that there was a big difference between $10,000 and $100,000. Not to the gamblers but to the bystanders who were witnessing their shouting taunts to each other. What my friend was missing was that the bystanders would have a different opinion about those two numbers as far as their feelings regarding the two gamblers. Some of them would look down on a guy who made a fool of himself for 10K but would consider the other guy a fool if his 100k offer was accepted.

I realize that I used a yucky trivial anecdote to make a point about a far more seious situation, but the concepts are the same.
Who the **** wouldnít jump into a pool with their clothes on for 10k? Your friend sounds like a tool. Nobody is looking down on someone who jumps into a pool with their clothes on for 10k...
 
Old 01-04-2019, 08:38 PM   #1175
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
You might make $1 in interest
Eh, you can find a high yield online savings account and make like a cool twenty bucks...
 

 
      

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