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Old 01-04-2019, 01:35 PM   #976
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Quote:
Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
You don't put the wall money in the CR, you put it in the same bill as MFA/DACA. For someone who thinks the Rs have no leverage I would have thought this would be obvious.

a bill that GOP in the senate has to pass and trump has to sign.

pinky swear! but seriously, they're gonna do M4A in exchange for a paltry $5B in border wall money? zero chance bro.


btw since you mention it, still waiting on you to explain how the GOP has any leverage here

and like wookie said, it's unbelievably bad strategy to let GOP take the govt hostage every time they want to pitch a fit about some useless bull****
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:38 PM   #977
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

lol @ doubting Pelosi

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Old 01-04-2019, 01:39 PM   #978
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

**** trump and his wall. It's not even about getting him to cave.

Quote:
Some GOP senators are telling McConnell to cave


Republican Sens. Cory Gardner of Colorado and Susan Collins of Maine say the shutdown should end before a deal is reached on a wall.
ETA: Some comments earlier about Trump never giving in are false also imo. He was about to sign the other bill before getting made fun of by Coulter and Fox.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:39 PM   #979
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Leverage on what? I've posted twice about it. Their voters don't see the shutdown as anything other than the Dems holding the government hostage over a measly 5b towards a wall we desperately need. Their leverage is that their base likes the shutdowns and so they take less damage in a game of political chicken here.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:41 PM   #980
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Who cares what Trump deplorable voters think? If Republicans are caving, they know who is taking the political damage here.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:43 PM   #981
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
Leverage on what? I've posted twice about it. Their voters don't see the shutdown as anything other than the Dems holding the government hostage over a measly 5b towards a wall we desperately need. Their leverage is that their base likes the shutdowns and so they take less damage in a game of political chicken here.
as i said before, who gives a **** what the deplorable base thinks or wants

you counting on their votes in 2020? gmafb

you're really bad at this strategy stuff, but then again you are a centrist/moderate dem (maybe not even a dem), soooooo
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:43 PM   #982
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by spidercrab View Post
Term limits are bad. Someone is going to make the laws. If we handicap, via term limits, the incentive and ability of elected politicians to build up a good institutional knowledge of how to craft and enact laws, you're simply going to shift power to unaccountable/unobservable lobbyists and groups like ALEC.

Terms limits for the legislative are bad. In addition to the above, term limits also severely limit the pool of people being able to run for congress. I don't think we get AOC if her prospect is to be unemployed in 6 years max.
It also makes MoC (even more) beholden to corporate and special interests. Their concern is shifted away (even more) from what gets them reelected to what gets them a cushy post-congress job.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:43 PM   #983
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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**** trump and his wall. It's not even about getting him to cave.



ETA: Some comments earlier about Trump never giving in are false also imo. He was about to sign the other bill before getting made fun of by Coulter and Fox.
I really think they could make a deal and get it past Trump if they could keep the press from knowing the details beforehand (an impossible task obviously).
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:48 PM   #984
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Keep dishonestly strawmaning away Rep. That isn't what I was saying and you know it.

I mean I thought we had largely agreed in this forum that elections are mostly about turning your voters out, not the mythical independent voters or converting people. Based on that I would assume things that increase/suppress turnout by one side or the other would be something we would care about. I care about winning as bigly as possible in 2020 so I think it matters, you are welcome to your own opinion.

No I don't think the Dems should cave, at all. It should either be 0$ for the wall, or such a big political win for the dems that the fact he got a few billion for the wall is inconsequential. And by proposing the second of those options you win even if you don't get it. You show your base you are TRYING to actually do something positive rather than doing nothing.

I mean what is the biggest Dem win of the last 30 years? That time Obama and the Dems pissed a supermajority down the tubes by letting themselves getting tricked into passing a Republican health care plan? And then got destroyed in the next election for it? I for one am tired of the same old bull**** with this party where we are so clueless and hopeless that we either completely cave getting less than scraps or are so principled we never get anything accomplished.

For how bad the Republicans suck they have gotten the vast majority of the agenda enacted while holding a minority position. Meanwhile the Dems have gotten what exactly? At some point there has to be an understanding of reality and how to at least score a few points if not get some actual wins. Because right now there are literally none.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:49 PM   #985
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

nobody is strawmanning you, you're just making a terrible argument

WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE DEPLORABLES

bro they're ****ing turning out for him regardless
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:50 PM   #986
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
You don't put the wall money in the CR, you put it in the same bill as MFA/DACA. For someone who thinks the Rs have no leverage I would have thought this would be obvious.
Didn't they offer 25 billion for his wall in exchange for dreamers and the right wanted no part of it.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:52 PM   #987
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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My guess is by about 235-199.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:53 PM   #988
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
nobody is strawmanning you, you're just making a terrible argument

WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE DEPLORABLES

bro they're ****ing turning out for him regardless
I'm talking about motivating OUR BASE you clueless moron. I explicitly said in my post that the right doesn't care about the shutdown so it won't affect them. So yes, you are still strawmaning me in this very post unless you just can't read.

Fighting to actually get some semblance of an agenda passed whether it happens or not isn't a terrible argument. Saying it is better to just throw your hands in the air, say it's impossible and do nothing is the terrible argument.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:54 PM   #989
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

and why are you bitching about obama and obamacare? you realize that if obama had told them to go **** themselves, we'd have something closer to UHC than the ****ing mess we have now. but instead he negotiated and compromised in pretty much the exact same manner you want now, banking on republican good faith and then after giving up a bunch of concessions and passing some bull**** that should have been amenable to them, they still battled it tooth and nail in the courts and gave every effort to sabotage it.

but yea totally, we should just give them $5B as a downpayment on the wall because deplorables
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:56 PM   #990
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Starve? Dissuade other people from coming here because everyone who does starves?

As you say, that's a feature, not a bug. Nevermind that the jobs we're talking about are the ones no one wants to do, if they have any sort of alternative.

Drives me crazy - someone is willing to walk 1500 miles to take a crappy job so they can make their (and their family) life better - that's the sort of people we NEED here.

MM MD
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:57 PM   #991
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidercrab View Post
Term limits are bad. Someone is going to make the laws. If we handicap, via term limits, the incentive and ability of elected politicians to build up a good institutional knowledge of how to craft and enact laws, you're simply going to shift power to unaccountable/unobservable lobbyists and groups like ALEC.
**** that. You end up w/ guys like Turtle that work in Congress 40 years and somehow bank tens of millions of dollars. You can always leave an outgoing member on an advisory board or whatever for a year or 2 so the new members get the gist of the job. But having these old dinosaurs serve decades is keeping the country back from it's true potential.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:57 PM   #992
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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lol @ doubting Pelosi

nice
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:58 PM   #993
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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I get your point but there has to be some consequence to the employer, otherwise the abuses never stop because the incentive to not abuse doesn't exist. (Also minor nit, you mentioned "fines" not "prosecutions" in the op)
I don't want to downplay the worker exploitation that does occur, and there is a lot of it, but I think you still might be significantly overestimating its prevalence and severity. I've spent over half my 20+ years in construction working in Texas on jobs where the undocumented routinely outnumbered everybody else. I can assure you there is plenty of incentive to treat people like people, and as micro points out, the employers prone to abuses dgaf about fines anyway.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:59 PM   #994
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
I'm talking about motivating OUR BASE you clueless moron. I explicitly said in my post that the right doesn't care about the shutdown so it won't affect them. So yes, you are still strawmaning me in this very post unless you just can't read.

Fighting to actually get some semblance of an agenda passed whether it happens or not isn't a terrible argument. Saying it is better to just throw your hands in the air, say it's impossible and do nothing is the terrible argument.
actually it sounded more like you were speaking vaguely about both sides-

Quote:
Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
I mean I thought we had largely agreed in this forum that elections are mostly about turning your voters out, not the mythical independent voters or converting people. Based on that I would assume things that increase/suppress turnout by one side or the other would be something we would care about. I care about winning as bigly as possible in 2020 so I think it matters, you are welcome to your own opinion.
idk how negotiating with them over this shutdown suppresses their 2020 turnout or boosts ours, but the fact is you aren't getting M4A for $5B in wall money, which is the exact sort of stupid nonsensical hypothetical that i objected to you blabbering about in the first place. but yea sure i'm the moron.

idgaf what you think anymore, and tbh i never really did. i just wanted to you to give me one good reason to cough up $5B in wall money, and you haven't.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:59 PM   #995
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

And here's one more thing about prosecuting or fining employers....what do you think happens to the undocumented workers IN THE REAL WORLD when you point the police and prosecutors in their general direction? You can have a fantasy about them being treated wonderfully, but that ain't happening.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:59 PM   #996
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
Leverage on what? I've posted twice about it. Their voters don't see the shutdown as anything other than the Dems holding the government hostage over a measly 5b towards a wall we desperately need. Their leverage is that their base likes the shutdowns and so they take less damage in a game of political chicken here.
That's not leverage. No one except Trump and his slappies give a **** about the deplorables. Trump certainly thinks he has the leverage but he doesn't.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:59 PM   #997
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
You don't put the wall money in the CR, you put it in the same bill as MFA/DACA. For someone who thinks the Rs have no leverage I would have thought this would be obvious.


That bill isnít going to pass
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:08 PM   #998
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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$5B for DACA is totally worth it, and if it keeps happening to that much success - woo hoo!
Not to be contrary but I don't agree. The DACA kids are deserving of status but the Dems should be fighting for things that more broadly impact all Americans rather than for an exec order that impacts just a few thousand people. Maybe a full immigration reform bill, or maybe something in the health care sector, but certainly not something as narrowly focused as DACA. jmho.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:08 PM   #999
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

also this whole $5B for DACA angle is equally stupid

https://www.nilc.org/issues/daca/sta...ca-litigation/

Quote:
In the days and months following, multiple lawsuits challenging the Trump administration’s actions to terminate DACA were filed across the country. Two U.S. district courts have since enjoined, or halted, the government’s termination of DACA and required U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to continue accepting DACA applications from individuals who have previously had DACA. A third U.S. district court has ordered the government to follow its original 2012 policy of not sharing DACA recipients’ private information for enforcement purposes, and a fourth U.S. district court (in the District of Columbia) has twice issued orders striking down the termination of DACA and reinstating the original program. However, the court in DC partially “stayed” its order that vacated the Trump administration’s termination of the DACA program.[2] This stay postpones the effective date of portions of the court’s order that would require USCIS to accept DACA applications regardless of whether the applicants previously had DACA.
so like, DACA is being defended and upheld at every level by the courts so far, it's still an ongoing process, the applications are being renewed, and you guys are sitting here talking about what you'd give trupm and the GOP to preserve it. master negotiators.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:08 PM   #1000
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re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: State of Emergency

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Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
I don't want to downplay the worker exploitation that does occur, and there is a lot of it, but I think you still might be significantly overestimating its prevalence and severity. I've spent over half my 20+ years in construction working in Texas on jobs where the undocumented routinely outnumbered everybody else. I can assure you there is plenty of incentive to treat people like people, and as micro points out, the employers prone to abuses dgaf about fines anyway.
I haven't hired anyone who was undocumented, but I've tried. Just one guy - very good, skilled, great guy. I just couldn't promise enough work to get him to take it.
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