Yes. And before the shutdown, the Dems offered 1.7 billion for fencing. So Trump's shutdown brinkmanship got him LESS border money. The argument that any wall money incentivizes Trump to shutdown the government every time he doesn't get his way, which already makes no sense because this whole ordeal has been a political disaster for him that he visibly fears reliving, still makes no sense even if you ignore the political cost incurred.

Here's one.


https://twitter.com/RepAndyBiggsAZ/s...239386624?s=19

I keep seeing this argument. Do you guys honestly believe Trump is happy with the way this whole government shutdown fiasco has played out and can't wait to try it again? He's getting skewered from both the left and the right, his approval has dropped, and he's closer than at any other time in his presidency to losing his biggest supporters in the right-wing media. Pelosi stood up to him and he had to crawl back home to his base with a "deal" that was worse than what was on the table before this all started. Don't confuse him gaslighting his supporters with a victory declaration with him being happy with this result.

If he's been educated at all, the lesson he should be taking away is to take the first offer the Dems give you, because it's only going to get worse from there. They're more united than your side and the public will blame you over them. This "win" is nothing more than a trivial sum of money for fencing that, quite frankly, even a lot of Democrats have and would've rubber-stamped without giving it much thought until it became conflated with Trump's wall. In other words, nothing of real consequence was given up.

On the other hand, the political benefit of being able to say that a bipartisan agreement was reached on what's actually needed for border security is huge if Trump decides to play games with another shutdown or emergency declaration. Whatever happens from here (if he doesn't just take the loss and move on), he owns it completely, which is worth a lot more in messaging for 2020 than turning this into a stalemate where the low-information voter will just see it as "both sides" refusing to compromise.

Meh freedom cockus

Also he should copy her losing in presidential elections.

You know it's a bad week when even Hilldawg is dunking on you. This is like getting posterized by JJ Barea.

Of course he's not happy. He is still gaslighting and will keep doing it.

Not how Trump has ever operated. Give him an inch, he'll go for a foot. Give him a foot, he'll go for a mile. He operates by extracting as much as he can because he has no baseline or any regard for "fairness" and "truth." It's how he has operated for his entire life.

I actually agree and have pointed out that the money is trivial. But the symbolism is important. Intellectually, it's stupid to conflate the wall with Trump but Trump will 100% blast the internet and TVs with some imposing images of the "fencing" (as Dems call it) and say he's done more to protect the border than any president in history.

Trump would own a shutdown anyway. Democrats just have to publicly say they are negotiating with Trump directly because ultimately it's his signature that matters.

The GOP would be happy to play along. McConnel sure as hell did everything he could to make Trump own the the last shutdown.

And as I said earlier in this post, you give him any wall, it's his campaign ad for all of 2020. Keep Making America Great Again or some other BS.

Non-sense. Trump is all about scoring wins. Keep in mind the baseline Dems started with is no ****ing wall. What did they get from the GOP senators? Keep in mind the GOP senators are probably more desperate than the Dems to get a deal to punt this **** off to Trump.

0% Trump or even his supporters will sell the 1.x billion as final. They'll say it's a down payment and will fight for the next batch of money. You know, like right around September when the funding in current proposals will run out. What then? Give him another 1.7? Then another 1.7 every 6 or 7 months until he can pound the table during 2020 elections and scream, correctly, that he got almost all the money he wanted for the wall? It's the same **** with bat**** insane girlfriends wanting Birkin bags. You give them a 3k LV bag, even with a million disclaimers that it's a special occasion and another one will not be coming, they'll just throw a fit the next time Hermes releases a new Birkin and the cycle repeats itself.

This isn't just about the potential for shutdown. It's painfully obvious Trump will manufacture crises basically to keep the spotlight on himself. It's not even a conscious decision, it's just "F&F isn't talking about me as much today. Let me know how I can use my powers as President to get F&F's attention." Then he flails his presidential powers around and break more ****, basically crying out for attention.

Just think back. Every time he's out of the news cycle a little bit... he does something really stupid. Nothing to do? OECD meetings... where he decided to antagonize our European allies and basically test the waters about leaving NATO. Bored? Let's meet the NK dictator who absolutely loved being legitimized. An even more idiotic version of this that's probably also true is just that when Trump isn't in the middle of something stupid, F&F will remind him of some random promise he doesn't even remember or talk about some non-existent threat to Democracy, from someone who "hates America" of course.

The Executive Branch may be the most functional when Trump's entire attention is on how to shut the whole thing down so the few professionals left in the departments can do their ****ing jobs. (between the furloughs of course)

The point is, he's not going to keep doing this again and again and again, because he got nothing out of it this time but a massive political and PR nightmare. Getting a few bucks for fencing is nothing more than a face-saving thing he can spin, not an actual win for him. That has always been part of the Democrats' border plan from the beginning. President Deals got outnegotiated by Nancy Pelosi so badly that he was forced to give ground from his starting point. You guys are making it sound like he won something and he's going to keep coming back for more. At the rate he's going, he'll be giving money back next time.

There's also the fact that he can't just shut down the government whenever he wants. If he signs this deal, he'll have only one more year of appropriations he can attempt to hijack, but there's no reason to think Congress is going to be any more receptive to his plan next year. Let him try it and look foolish again in an election year.

You might think that and I might think that, but tell that to some rube in Wisconsin or Michigan who doesn't follow politics at all, can't make up their mind who to vote for, but knows the government is shut down for a second month because Trump and the Democrats are bickering about the wall and no one will compromise again. It is an unequivocally better message for the Dems to be able to say "we passed a compromise bill with Republican support and he still chose to shut down the government rather than sign it" than to make some esoteric argument that their refusal to compromise is more righteous and justified than his & the Republicans'.

“We cannot allow Soros, Steyer and Bloomberg to buy this election!”- Kevin McCarthy


Wonder how many republicans would have to go including trump himslef.

Those "rubes" won't see concessions from Democrats as compromises.

Democrats could have just offered ICE more money. It's practical and actually serves a real purpose (you know, like giving them money to house and track kids that they apparently refuse to stop detaining.)

Because that's where ICE will spend the money.

Earmark it and require it and call it enforcement money.

ICE has people and I choose to believe some of them are decent enough human beings that will try to do their best if given the resources. There wouldn't be whistleblowers getting us some of the videos we've seen otherwise.

Oh you sweet sweet summer child!

I think ICE agents on average are going to have more than their share of personal failings going in, but I'm sure many of them are good people - or would like to be if they had the chance. The problem is it's a bad institution and a bad environment. It leads to bad people being worse and good people not following their better impulses. I know the Stanford Prison experiment wasn't perfect or anything, but like the Milgram experiments were done pretty well I think.....it's like that.

You can take every one of those people in ICE, take away their guns and bullet proof vests, put them on a humanitarian mission, celebrate when they help people and you'll see them generally doing good.

And, I don't watch the TV news a lot and haven't seen these videos. Are they really from ICE or from workers in the private facilities?

I actually agree more money likely will do limited good if at all. But there is some chance for some improvement at the margins.

1.x billion for the wall can only do harm.

Does it matter?

The answer is there have been whistleblowers from both ICE and the contractors.

One of the most abhorrent things about this whole episode is Trump is right. The country doesn’t care that much about Mexican immigrants. We all know children are still being separated from their parents and being lost in the system but apparently such stories are not getting the ratings and clicks to warrant keeping them on the front page.

Yeah, it matters because some of the people working for the contractors didn't know what the hell they were getting into. Some of them thought they were actually in the child care industry. One that I saw a while back was someone who had been working there for like two days. ICE officers are not betraying their fellow officers so easily.

Have there been many videos? Ive only seen two i think. And none in a while.


Oh and the negotiation should start with abolishing ice and opened boarders. I know thats not piratical since we will be overrun by Mayans and other Native Americas.

the ones who blew whistles either quit or were fired. the only ones left now are total nazis and child molesters