The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: Harm to Ongoing Matter - Page 101 - Politics and Economics

Unfortunately, you are operating on one of the even-numbered levels and getting the wrong answer, when being either a level up or a level down would work just fine. Sure the wall doesn't matter in a practical sense, but the practical consequences of a shutdown don't really matter to Democratic decisionmakers either, as long as the voters blame them on Trump. So, why give Trump a political victory (the wall) in exchange for bailing him out of an ongoing political trainwreck (the shutdown).

Obviously, they aren't going to message it that way, they're going to say they oppose the wall (true!) and think Trump should reopen the government and negotiate in a normal way for his priorities rather than using bullying and hostage-taking to get his way (also true!), because those things sound better to the voters.

EDIT: To put it more concisely, you may be right that both sides are unmoored from policy arguments, but the GOP is also unmoored from the political argument too.

I agree -- I'm not saying the Democrats should give the money for the wall. I'm saying the Democrats treating the policy as crucially important is very dumb and transparent -- for example, Pelosi saying a border wall is immoral. So they should argue on political/procedural grounds, which has the benefit of being why they're actually not giving into Trump.

01-10-2019 , 06:21 PM

#2502

simplicitus

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 10,840

Exactly.

https://twitter.com/jonfavs/status/1083488318115860486

01-10-2019 , 06:22 PM

#2503

bobman0330

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Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 24,234

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

That seems like very bad political messaging advice. People are going without paychecks, you can't just say you're doing it to **** with the opposition.

01-10-2019 , 06:27 PM

#2504

SenorKeeed

mew mew mew

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 37,478

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

That seems like very bad political messaging advice. People are going without paychecks, you can't just say you're doing it to **** with the opposition.

but...that is why they're doing it? And everyone knows it? What's the point of transparently lying that 5 billion for a wall is actually crucially important one way or the other?

01-10-2019 , 06:30 PM

#2505

synth_floyd

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 7,074

Can he call the emergency and then have the dems tie it up in court for the next 2 years until we get another president?

01-10-2019 , 06:32 PM

#2506

Kirbynator

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does everyone in here realize that the 5 billion is only the first part of the stupid wall?

01-10-2019 , 06:38 PM

#2507

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

but...that is why they're doing it? And everyone knows it? What's the point of transparently lying that 5 billion for a wall is actually crucially important one way or the other?

So that people can't cut attack ads over video of you saying you shut down the government over politics? Why would you not lie and say the policy was important?

01-10-2019 , 06:40 PM

#2508

SenorKeeed

mew mew mew

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 37,478

Because it's a transparently false and dumb lie? But what the hell, maybe you're right, kewero for example seems to buy it.

01-10-2019 , 06:41 PM

#2509

realDonaldTrump

WITCH HUNT!

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 2,921

( twitter | raw text )

01-10-2019 , 06:42 PM

#2510

13ball

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 12,912

If you give 5 billion now, Trump will force another shutdown to get more money. And then you'll be in a worse position to stop it.

Dems have learned from Obama's mistake.

01-10-2019 , 06:43 PM

#2511

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

How high can the fence be before the fence is anti-American?

Who cares? Trump isn't proposing half measures.

01-10-2019 , 06:46 PM

#2512

bobman0330

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Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 24,234

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

Because it's a transparently false and dumb lie? But what the hell, maybe you're right, kewero for example seems to buy it.

Who cares if it's transparently false? If someone's mad about the shutdown, you just say you thought stopping the wall was really important and play the video of Trump saying he owns the shutdown. You can't lose.

01-10-2019 , 06:52 PM

#2513

SenorKeeed

mew mew mew

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 37,478

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

But you can do the same thing based on procedural and democratic norms arguments. If we give in to Trump's shutdown demands there will just be more shutdowns, we can't let this be the norm, etc. And that case has the benefit of being true!

And who cares if "not spending 5 billion on a wall is crucially important" is a transparent lie? Well, the guy mad about the shutdown might care if he concludes the Democrats are transparently lying about their motivations for the shutdown.

01-10-2019 , 06:55 PM

#2514

LostOstrich

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Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 15,933

If Trump refused to sign any finance bill that didn't include $5billion for a red cross to be painted on the front door of every black person in America I swear keed would be in here arguing that the dems should stop being so transparently dumb and dishonest, it's not about the red crosses on black people's doors, they should just give him the money and let the government function.

01-10-2019 , 07:01 PM

#2515

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

Quote:

Originally Posted by patron

Scavino must have watched You're The Worst last night.

Fitting title for this President as well.

Lol thought the same ****ing thing. Sad to know that someone on that level might enjoy my favorite show.

01-10-2019 , 07:02 PM

#2516

brianr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4,573

It’s flat out extortion, that’s why. Get these weak ass policy arguments out of here. King baby wants a wall and he’s holding everything else hostage.

01-10-2019 , 07:20 PM

#2517

Kirbynator

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Cohen's motivations are very nebulous to me at this point

01-10-2019 , 07:29 PM

#2518

Effen

CRAB

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 24,004

wherever would this forum be without keeeeed concern trolling democrats might be doing something republicans have done with complete impunity so many times it doesn't even register anymore

01-10-2019 , 07:30 PM

#2519

Effen

CRAB

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 24,004

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

but...that is why they're doing it? And everyone knows it? What's the point of transparently lying that 5 billion for a wall is actually crucially important one way or the other?

why can't the Democrats be more intellectually honest, he asked

01-10-2019 , 07:30 PM

#2520

lol_at_you

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 554

I can't believe anyone still engages with the moron troll.

01-10-2019 , 07:33 PM

#2521

Effen

CRAB

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 24,004

Democrats: dumb and transparent by engaging in the mildest form of politics
Republicans: stanning on a daily basis for a senile racist who literally can't spell coffee or forest

two sides of the same coin

01-10-2019 , 07:34 PM

#2522

Effen

CRAB

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 24,004

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

And who cares if "not spending 5 billion on a wall is crucially important" is a transparent lie? Well, the guy mad about the shutdown might care if he concludes the Democrats are transparently lying about their motivations for the shutdown.

Narrator: He doesn't.

01-10-2019 , 07:36 PM

#2523

smacc25

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 2,969

Even Mikey has a fund.... https://uk.gofundme.com/hqjupj-michael-cohen-truth-fund

The Truth Fund.... ��

I'm I as late as Dom... ��

01-10-2019 , 07:43 PM

#2524

alazo1985

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effen

Ill say it again—Dems self-evaluate because they have empathy
Republicans are intellectually dishonest because they lack empathy

01-10-2019 , 07:51 PM

#2525

fxwacgesvrhdtf

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by lozen

So MNBC and CNN strategy parade all the folks that are suffering from the shutdown and Fox parade all the folks who had a family member killed by an Illegal immigrant

Fox went to a small town and interviewed 4 folks at a café (old & white) Woman says we support Trump he understands us and grew up like us? Sadly the reporter didn't say your daddy gave you millions

What a farce

This is like the greatest con he has pulled off. He grew up in NEW YORK FREAKING CITY.

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