The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: Harm to Ongoing Matter - Page 47 - Politics and Economics

Not having a wall is more important to me than DACA. Giving any credence to the wall demeans us as a country, more so than something like DACA builds us up.

Would you feel this way if you were a Dreamer?

01-04-2019 , 06:48 PM

#1152

TheHip41

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Quote:

Originally Posted by d10

-rep is trying to slip the bolded by because deep down he understands that the key to turning a negotiation into a political win is to force the Republicans to block popular demands. It was not a mistake or abbreviation on his part to describe the Republican demands in terms of both reasonableness and popularity while subtly holding Democrat proposals to a different standard. He's reframing the argument so that people who overlook the shift are more likely to believe that he has a reasonable argument. He only cares about winning the debate though, not about developing a consensus on the issues through a good faith discussion. He's not worth engaging.

Also I should point out this is the generous interpretation. The other option is that he has no idea what he's talking about. His highlights over the last page are emphatically denying making strawman arguments, then making the strawiest of arguments in all caps in the very next sentence, and playing dumb regarding the legislative process as if a clean CR -> negotiated funding bill for the wall + huge Democratic priorities is impossible or somehow a loss for Democrats if the negotiated bill never happens and it ends with a clean CR. Of course if this is the case he's still not worth engaging.

When d10 is on your side in an argument. You lost.

01-04-2019 , 06:54 PM

#1153

TheHip41

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

These aren't literally people with a gun to their heads. Every negotiation between the president and congress isn't a hostage situation.

If anything it's the other way around because the wall hurts no one directly, whereas DACA would help a ton of people tremendously.

He’s holding federal workers hostage.

01-04-2019 , 06:58 PM

#1154

AllTheCheese

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If you won't give 5B for full, completely guaranteed protections for the million+ Dreamers, then you are a PoS, period.

Last edited by AllTheCheese; 01-04-2019 at 07:00 PM. Reason: And also bad at politics

01-04-2019 , 07:08 PM

#1155

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

For those in the know, how does the shutdown affect the IRS? I know it affects its ability to issue refunds, but ehat about things like enforcing wage garnishments, collecting taxes, and completing audits?

01-04-2019 , 07:08 PM

#1156

mather_2020

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 404

Dem should absolutely trade 5 billion for DACA. Just a year ago they were ready to give Trump 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA which Trump rejected.

01-04-2019 , 07:17 PM

#1157

TheHip41

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheCheese

If you won't give 5B for full, completely guaranteed protections for the million+ Dreamers, then you are a PoS, period.

Counterpoint

**** trump and is KKK Nazi memorial wall

01-04-2019 , 07:17 PM

#1158

TheHip41

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mather_2020

Dem should absolutely trade 5 billion for DACA. Just a year ago they were ready to give Trump 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA which Trump rejected.

You realize the same people building a giant wall to keep brown people out aren’t going to make a deal to let brown people stay.

01-04-2019 , 07:19 PM

#1159

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

A lot of people are suggesting that because the wall costs up to 100 billion that giving him 5 billion is no big deal, it won't do anything and therefore we should use it as leverage to try and get something else passed.

These people are smart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

I think the danger in giving 1 dollar specifically for the wall is that it legitimizes it and is the wedge for the next time he tries to get money for it.

It doesn't legitimize anything. Also, that's great if he wants to play this game again and make huge concessions for magic beans and a wall that isn't going to be built.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

Not having a wall is more important to me than DACA. Giving any credence to the wall demeans us as a country, more so than something like DACA builds us up.

The wall is not ever going to actually happen even if Dems cave entirely and just give him $20B.

01-04-2019 , 07:22 PM

#1160

WillieWin?

adept

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 893

Dumb question:

Given it's a new session does the bill the previous House passed still require approval from both chambers?

01-04-2019 , 07:22 PM

#1161

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHip41

You realize the same people building a giant wall to keep brown people out aren’t going to make a deal to let brown people stay.

1. Trump might just be that dumb and persuadable. Don't overestimate him.

2. OK, fine. We are no worse for offering it.

01-04-2019 , 07:24 PM

#1162

Clovis8

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I think some people itt really underestimate the power of the intangible and symbolism in politics. The wall is another example of this.

Sure it won’t do anything functional so why not let him build it for DACA, single payer etc?

The reason is the wall’s symbolism is far more toxic than its ability to stop people from crossing the border.

As was said earlier itt, the wall is a massive anti-Statue of Liberty which if built screams to the whole world America is a place for white people and all non-white should not come.

You think a few confederate statues are bad try one that is 2,000 miles long!

I say don’t give them 1c for the wall ever.

01-04-2019 , 07:29 PM

#1163

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 58,700

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

And you're underestimating how ****ty it is to be in legal limbo as a Dreamer.

01-04-2019 , 07:30 PM

#1164

AllTheCheese

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No the symbolism of having a partial wall, some of which already exists, is not more toxic than the reality of hundreds of thousands of people who have grown up in this country being deported to an essentially foreign land.

01-04-2019 , 07:34 PM

#1165

AllTheCheese

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What do you think is symbolized by daily news stories of productive, law-abiding members of American society being detained and deported for no reason other than overstaying a visa fifteen years ago or crossing the border illegally with their mommy as a toddler? That has zero symbolic impact?

01-04-2019 , 07:47 PM

#1166

Clovis8

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Quote:

Originally Posted by eyebooger

And you're underestimating how ****ty it is to be in legal limbo as a Dreamer.

Dreamers can be fixed another way or in 2 years. You can’t unbuild a 2,000 mile monument to white supremacy.

01-04-2019 , 07:51 PM

#1167

dth123451

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The stupid ****ing wall is never getting built, ever. Come on people.

01-04-2019 , 07:51 PM

#1168

markksman

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GMan42

I could easily picture them pissing $5b away without a single steel slat getting stuck int the ground. It's seriously nothing.

I’m projecting about 50 million dollars per foot of wall.

01-04-2019 , 07:59 PM

#1169

smacc25

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 2,969

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillieWin?

Dumb question:

Given it's a new session does the bill the previous House passed still require approval from both chambers?

It's a fresh start, old bills die.

01-04-2019 , 08:09 PM

#1170

Koss

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dth123451

The stupid ****ing wall is never getting built, ever. Come on people.

At this point I dont even know what the ****ing wall is anymore. Trump has talked about anything from a few miles of steel slats to a full on great wall of china operation across our southern border. The great wall is off the table, but we could be drawing live to some token bull**** on the other end that trump will claim victory for.

01-04-2019 , 08:21 PM

#1171

BadBoyBenny

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Quote:

Originally Posted by WichitaDM

For those of you in the **** you crowd, how long do you think passing things like DACA/M4A would take with zero votes from Republicans and the right leaning democrats? You would need 60 progressive senate seats, a house majority and president. I don't see 60 senate seats happening again for a very very long time. Maybe not again in our lifetimes with the structural advantages built in there.

Not to completely change the subject but I agree with the above, and wonder at this point, if the Dems take control of the Senate in a 2020 Blue wave, why should they not just alter the rules and eliminate the filibuster? This is exactly what Republicans would do in this situation and IMO the right move. Dems are always afraid about doing stuff like this because "OMG what would happen next time Repubs take win an election?" (hint they will eliminate it anyway when it is to their advantage), or even worse "OMG we have to appear to be the reasonable adults in every debate?"

Filibuster isn't gaining the Dems anything anyway. It didn't stop the tax cut. It didn't save the ACA. It can't be used to stop unreasonable or rapist Supreme Court justices. I would rather live in a world where whoever can take all three branches gets their policies and has to live with the results. Without filibuster they can eliminate all this stupid drama over debt ceiling or funding government when they are in power.

01-04-2019 , 08:21 PM

#1172

AllTheCheese

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Clovis8

Dreamers can be fixed another way or in 2 years. You can’t unbuild a 2,000 mile monument to white supremacy.

Wat. 5B doesn't buy you 2000 miles, and yes, of course you can unbuild it. It's a ****ing wall. You may want to look into this place called Berlin.

01-04-2019 , 08:35 PM

#1173

fatkid

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AllTheCheese

Wat. 5B doesn't buy you 2000 miles, and yes, of course you can unbuild it. It's a ****ing wall. You may want to look into this place called Berlin.

Dude this fence is DYI so I can build the wall myself for 1.7 billion. I won’t be getting labor so it might take 200 years but Suck it libs.

https://www.wayfair.com/outdoor/hd0/...CABEgKvlvD_BwE

01-04-2019 , 08:36 PM

#1174

fxwacgesvrhdtf

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Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

There is one factor that people are missing. Considering that those who are against the wall are against it to a large extent because of what it symbolizes. Which is that the people of the world are pretty well aware of what is going on here and would actually not be that horrified if a partial wall was built if Democrats extracted major concessions for it.

I once had an argument with a friend who was bragging about a high stakes gambler he knew who refused to jump into a Las Vegas hotel pool with all his clothes on in front of all the guests, even for the $100,000 the other gambler was offering him. He didn't understand that there was a big difference between $10,000 and $100,000. Not to the gamblers but to the bystanders who were witnessing their shouting taunts to each other. What my friend was missing was that the bystanders would have a different opinion about those two numbers as far as their feelings regarding the two gamblers. Some of them would look down on a guy who made a fool of himself for 10K but would consider the other guy a fool if his 100k offer was accepted.

I realize that I used a yucky trivial anecdote to make a point about a far more seious situation, but the concepts are the same.

Who the **** wouldn’t jump into a pool with their clothes on for 10k? Your friend sounds like a tool. Nobody is looking down on someone who jumps into a pool with their clothes on for 10k...