Didn’t Team Trump decrease withholdings to make the tax cut FEEL bigger? I.e. Awval feels like he is getting $20 a week but come tax time he finds out its actually $5 a week?

1. I don't care if he takes it, it makes the Dems look like they're trying to re-open the government while Trump and the GOP look like crybabies. It's win-win. I'm not worried about acting in good faith because we're going to link it all legislatively so it's one whole bill.

DEMS HAVE LEVERAGE WITH AN EXPIRATION DATE. WHEN YOU HAVE LEVERAGE YOU ****ING USE IT, YOU DON'T HOLD IT UNTIL IT EXPIRES.

And unlike a poker tournament, that edge is going to evaporate at some point. Dems may not get 50 in the Senate even if they win the White House in 2020 and the House in 2020 and 2022. Even if they get 50 they may not hold their caucus together to pass anything significant. Making a favorable deal here IS using your edge. Saying **** off is more like taking an ICM chop when you have edge and a comfortable bankroll.

I dgaf whether he agrees or not, it's win-win as far as I'm concerned. He may trade ICE for his wall. He'd get to run on the wall again, which is a pretty big thing for him. "Vote for me and we're guaranteed to have another $12 billion to finish the wall, on top of the $8 we already got."

Stop trying to reframe it that way. The Dems are not holding the government hostage, the GOP is. The Dems are not getting concessions for re-opening the government, they're getting concessions for letting Trump out of the corner he just backed the GOP into.

Not at all. Trump shut the government down. The Dems passed a clean CR and Mitch wouldn't vote on it even though he passed the same thing unanimously in the Senate. These are the facts and they are not disputable.

The Dems are not holding the government hostage, the Dems are simply keeping Trump boxed into the corner he created. At this point they can allow this to end in two ways:

1. Trump eats a huge plate of crow, gives up on the wall funding for now and re-opens the government on a clean CR.

2. They extract painful concessions for wall funding.

Again, because you're not getting it so far. The Dems are NOT holding the government hostage.

LOL.

I mostly agree. I think Trump is high on his own supply with regard to Fox and actually wants a wall and thinks it's good, but ultimately doesn't care that much about it just like he doesn't care much about any policy beyond caring about winning and his own personal gains.

I think at this point a lot of Country Club Republicans are not moderates and are racist/dumb/brainwashed enough to want the wall pretty badly. But on some level they are almost as content complaining about not getting the wall as they would be having the wall.

Bolded is so so so so true.

EIC alone for people is several thousand dollars with kids. Add in child tax credits and whatever they over paid in withhold and you get a very large tax refund. Here are the EIC levels for people with kids last year if you qualified. No idea how the bigliest tax cut in human history changed things.

The maximum amount of credit for Tax Year 2017 is:

$6,318 with three or more qualifying children
$5,616 with two qualifying children
$3,400 with one qualifying child

You also get your child tax credit on top of that. So yes if you have lots of kids and hit the sweet spot for EIC your tax refund is 6-10k even though your withholding for the year in many cases was like $2000

There is one factor that people are missing. Considering that those who are against the wall are against it to a large extent because of what it symbolizes. Which is that the people of the world are pretty well aware of what is going on here and would actually not be that horrified if a partial wall was built if Democrats extracted major concessions for it.

I once had an argument with a friend who was bragging about a high stakes gambler he knew who refused to jump into a Las Vegas hotel pool with all his clothes on in front of all the guests, even for the $100,000 the other gambler was offering him. He didn't understand that there was a big difference between $10,000 and $100,000. Not to the gamblers but to the bystanders who were witnessing their shouting taunts to each other. What my friend was missing was that the bystanders would have a different opinion about those two numbers as far as their feelings regarding the two gamblers. Some of them would look down on a guy who made a fool of himself for 10K but would consider the other guy a fool if his 100k offer was accepted.

I realize that I used a yucky trivial anecdote to make a point about a far more seious situation, but the concepts are the same.

Yea it seems like people are way too worried about losing a negotiation to Mr. Art of the Deal.

If Pelosi can't outsmart Trump at the bargaining table, WAAF anyway. Might as well try to make some legitimate progress.

I'd jump in the pool for 10k

God damn right

I'd jump in a pool for $100

Im in the pool right now...

I'm playing pocket pool.

I realize I'm way behind here, but I'm part of the base you're talking about, and if Trump gets his wall I will be devasted and pissed at the Dems no matter what they get in return.

The point isn’t to actually get something great in return for the wall, it’s to get trump to agree to it then have Mitch say no and delight at the friendly fire.

You have to remember, Trump doesn’t care about policy AT ALL. Early on he said something along the lines of “why doesnt Medicare just cover everyone” and after one of these school shootings he initially ripped GOPers for being afraid of the NRA. He actually has a pretty good instinct for what is popular.

People being devastated to get M4A in exchange for a partial section of the, likely ****tily built, wall need to take a deep breath and step back from the fainting couches.

lots of strat discussed about best way to play hand w/ regards to policy, but isnt best strat to defeat trumpism = not give him 1c for the wall

If you aren’t willing to vote out Trump then you are a lost cause anyway

It's the unrealistic prospect of this which we are aghast at. Tell you what, if I see 2 random gamblers arguing over whether a fair bet is 10K or 100K to dive into a pool, on my way home tonight, I'll hop on this bandwagon.

Trump confirms he said this to Schumer.


https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/stat...72351117983745

Bite me. Paying a hostage taker so you can maybe get a prize is as immoral as anything Trump is doing.

These aren't literally people with a gun to their heads. Every negotiation between the president and congress isn't a hostage situation.

If anything it's the other way around because the wall hurts no one directly, whereas DACA would help a ton of people tremendously.

Which probably means he's ready to cave.

A lot of people are suggesting that because the wall costs up to 100 billion that giving him 5 billion is no big deal, it won't do anything and therefore we should use it as leverage to try and get something else passed. I think the danger in giving 1 dollar specifically for the wall is that it legitimizes it and is the wedge for the next time he tries to get money for it.

Not having a wall is more important to me than DACA. Giving any credence to the wall demeans us as a country, more so than something like DACA builds us up.

Channelling the spirit of Johnny Hughes there klansky.

Words bro.

You might make $1 in interest