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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

12-14-2017 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigt2k4
Story would carry more weight if it wasn't coming from people associated with super left wingers
Ha! Hockey humor.

Trump's elevator moves are creepy/scary douchebag behavior and consistent with his Access Hollywood admissions. Considering what other women have said he did, it's lucky there was a third prson there.
12-14-2017 , 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Right. The rise of the American style of evangelical Christianity, centered in the post WWII south, should be a huge tipoff that the entire movement is inseparable from white supremacy and a reaction to cultural changes that started during the period. The overlap between 'evangelicals' and Moore voters really isn't an accident. It's obviously hard to 'prove' but almost surely, the glib empirical causative reality is a bunch of super shook white people resistant to social changes, mostly the political and social status of black people and how those changes effected the view of themselves, their communities, their country -- stumbled into reactionary religious zealotry along with the whole panoply of reactionary regressive views -- trying furiously to undo the changing social and political arrangements. Religion is a trailing indicator in this case, not the leading one. The leading one was basically integration and black civil rights. Diving headlong into reactionary political and religious movements followed from there.

Really the tweet is emblematic of the 50 year long way this perpetually gets framed: these are 'values' voters, or 'evangelicals' or 'concerned about judges' or abortions or whatever. Lots of pretension.

Reframe it correctly:

"A very interesting piece of data from Alabama exit polls: While White women overall voted for Moore 63 to 34, when you break out evangelical racist vs non you get evangelical racist white women 76 - 22 Moore; non-evangelical racist white women 74 - 21 Jones!' "

No one likes that story much because it's mean to all those white people and people get frantic when you frame it like that, and obviously it becomes sort of circular and boring. But it's truer and tells a more accurate story of the social forces at work here. "Evangelical" is just how racists self-sorted themselves religiously over the past 50 years. Obviously there are some exceptions, with any set of data with tens of millions of data points there will always be outliers. I'm well aware of black evangelism, etc. But the point remains. The data isn't that interesting once you factor in that evangelical Christianity's post WWII ascendency was just another white supremacist totem.
This is partly correct, but I think it oversimplifies the issue considerably. The roots of evangelism in the American South trace back to long before WWII, and certainly to before the social upheaval of the 1960s.

Also, although white evangelicals in the South presumably are more racist than non-evangelicals, I'm not sure that their racism is leading them to evangelical religion, if that's what you are suggesting.

It may be more accurate to say that there are characteristics that, at least in South, make people more likely to be both evangelical and racist. Also, evangelical is a very broad term that captures a lot of different groups, which makes the sort of profiling that you are proposing pretty messy.
12-14-2017 , 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Doubly funny in that it was trumps boy steve bannon who was responsible for moore in the first place.
Who do you think he was tweeting that to?
12-14-2017 , 01:03 PM
Its about time we stop worrying about being PC and refer to them as what they are, "Radical Christian Terrorists".
12-14-2017 , 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
They could at least approach it agnostically. They don't need to call them trashy. Obviously us internet posters here can fire away.

But what reporters do wrong is take and repeat at face value the whole judges-and-abortion spiel and all the other accompanying pretense. It's unnecessary political cover. The effects are pernicious. The fair, actual story is that white people have en masse joined a highly reactionary political movement and the religious components are extent and surely 'important' to recognize but fundamentally driven by political behaviors and motivations. Too often the story gets told that religious motivations are underlying right-wing reactionary behaviors, but it gets it completely backwards.

It's ultimately servile to perpetuating white supremacy. The preponderance of right-wing bad faith arguments are the result of 50 years of this. We can't have an honest conversation about what's really motivating people because of the political cover granted by the elite consensus on how to talk about this.
The problem is that, even if you are correct that racism and resistance to social change led people to evangelism, it doesn't follow that, after thirty years of consuming evangelical derp, the views of evangelicals on issues like abortion are pretense. At some point, you begin to believe what you are exposed to repeatedly. There is no doubt in my mind that many Southern evangelicals would pass a lie detector test if you asked them whether abortion was murder, contrary to the will of God, etc.
12-14-2017 , 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Jimmy Carter though. Something in the Evangelical world changed a bit later. Really, post Reagan born again Christians were emboldened everywhere. Tim Tebow would have kept his religion to himself in 1979. The conservative movement was intertwined with churches going back earlier, but the shameless hive mind developed later or maybe was just relaxed during the 70s.
Archie Bunker.

In the 70s an entire country tuned in each week to laugh at and make fun of the prototypical dumb as a rock racist, sexist, conservative bible thumping, xenophobic, white male and I think that just proves how much shaming and #resistance works if in the form of the right medium.
12-14-2017 , 01:08 PM


Louis in rare form
12-14-2017 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin J
Archie Bunker.

In the 70s an entire country tuned in each week to laugh at and make fun of the prototypical stupid racist, sexist, conservative bible thumping, xenophobic, white male and I think that just proves how much shaming and #resistance works if in the form of the right medium.
Race was front and center in a lot of 70s TV shows (All in the Family, Sanford and Son, The Jeffersons). Part of what makes those shows interesting from a historical perspective is the uncertainty about whether the audience was being asked to laugh with, or at, certain characters. It was probably some of both.
12-14-2017 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
Race was front and center in a lot of 70s TV shows (All in the Family, Sanford and Son, The Jeffersons). Part of what makes those shows interesting from a historical perspective is the uncertainty about whether the audience was being asked to laugh with, or at, certain characters. It was probably some of both.
You left out my favorite. I was a skinny 9 year old named Jay and would sometimes go by "Kid Dyn-o-mite". Good Times.
12-14-2017 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
You left out my favorite. I was a skinny 9 year old named Jay and would sometimes go by "Kid Dyn-o-mite". Good Times.
For whatever reason, I watched Good Times only sporadically. I was a hard core Sanford and Son fan. TBS played multiple reruns every day for probably a decade. By the time I graduated from high school, I probably had seen every episode at least three times.
12-14-2017 , 01:50 PM
^ saved by the Bell for me.
12-14-2017 , 01:53 PM
Saved by the Bell tackled sensitive racial issues?
12-14-2017 , 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
For whatever reason, I watched Good Times only sporadically. I was a hard core Sanford and Son fan. TBS played multiple reruns every day for probably a decade. By the time I graduated from high school, I probably had seen every episode at least three times.
Sanford and Son was good too. Maybe better. But Good Times was right for me at that age - first run when I was a kid, not in syndication.
12-14-2017 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus
Saved by the Bell tackled sensitive racial issues?
Nah, just that I watched every episode multiple times before school throughout high school.

Although there was interracial dating, so that's something.
12-14-2017 , 02:14 PM
bye bye bet neutrality. congrats mason malmuth

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-deregulation/
12-14-2017 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuluck414
Nah, just that I watched every episode multiple times before school throughout high school.

Although there was interracial dating, so that's something.
There was one white guilt episode where Jesse found out her ancestors were slave owners and tried to apologize to Lisa
12-14-2017 , 02:32 PM
The Cosby Show proved that racism was over in the 80's.
12-14-2017 , 02:36 PM
Twoplustwo seems to be running slower today.
12-14-2017 , 02:39 PM
Is thinking that everyone is an idiot grounds for dismissal?

12-14-2017 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin J
Archie Bunker.

In the 70s an entire country tuned in each week to laugh at and make fun of the prototypical dumb as a rock racist, sexist, conservative bible thumping, xenophobic, white male and I think that just proves how much shaming and #resistance works if in the form of the right medium.
Archie Bunker was not a bible thumper, nor dumb as a rock. The others are pretty much true - but the character was more complex than you're making. Meathead was just as much of a dip**** in his own right.

The women were the brains of the family.
12-14-2017 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Sanford and Son was good too. Maybe better. But Good Times was right for me at that age - first run when I was a kid, not in syndication.
I loved Good Times too. Tried to watch an episode recently for nostalgia - completely unwatchable now. Michael, JJ and Thelma capping on each other was so cringey. Sitcoms have come a long way from the canned laughter and formulaic jokes telegraphed from a mile away.
12-14-2017 , 03:00 PM
Try watching Smokey and the Bandit.... good lord they are awful.
12-14-2017 , 03:04 PM
Diff'rent strokes holds up thanks to Gary Coleman's performance. They spoon fed it but they went head on.
12-14-2017 , 03:06 PM


https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffreyGo...69163439775744

Seems less than ideal.
12-14-2017 , 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
A lot of effort has been put forward to try to explain Trump and the modern GOP, but the factor that predominates--probably even more than racism (though there is a complex relationship)--is the influence of evangelical Christianity.
What is the difference - in terms of religious beliefs - between "evangelical" Christians and other Christians? My brief Wikipedia research has left me confused about what sounds like minor technical details, and causes me to prefer the DVaut explanation that the causative explanation here is racism and the evangelical stuff is just how that manifests in their practice of religion.

      
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