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Old 10-13-2017, 12:57 AM   #62151
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Old 10-13-2017, 12:58 AM   #62152
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib View Post
What are the political beliefs of modern American neo-nazis, aside from "Jews will not replace us" and torch-wielding?

Also, which country is having a bigger problem with neo-nazis, Germany, which is where nazism originated but currently has strict laws against promoting nazism, or the US, which fought against nazis in WW2 but does not restrict nazism from spreading at all?
White supremacists are explicitly political. They advocate for a white ethnostate.

How did Germany's ban work out in thier last election?
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:58 AM   #62153
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Worked out better than our lack of a ban.

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White supremacists are explicitly political. They advocate for a white ethnostate.
And they want to achieve this white ethnostate via peaceful demonstrations?

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We have laws against action, not ideas.
Incorrect in America. There are plenty of ideas that are against the law without action being necessary.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:00 AM   #62154
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Other posters like fly and rep have advocated getting down in the gutter with the right to win. I can appreciate the visceral sentiment but I think it's very misguided. My point is that is a short sighted strategy which is far more likely to hurt progressives in the long run by eroding the foundation of democracy.
I don't see getting down in the gutter as eroding the foundations of democracy. I see it more like vibrant and passionate disagreement. The erosion of democracy comes when the state does it. You know when that happens because the actual act of suppression is done by the police. As I mentioned in a recent semi-serious response to bobman, I might consider suppression of speech by corporations in a similar light to government suppression. The issue is who has power. Ag-gag laws come to mind. The enforcement requires government, but the line between government and industry can get pretty blurry.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:00 AM   #62155
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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You are conflating thought with action. Of course genocide should be illegal. My point is talking about it should not.

We have laws against action, not ideas. It should be illegal to deny someone access to school because of their race. It's shouldn't be illegal, not matter how idiotic it is, to argue a given race is less intelligent and would not succeed in school.
Fair, because I was unclear. To be more clear, advocating for it should be illegal, which seems to cross your line of free speech. (That includes advocating for Nazism, and whatever-the-**** branches of it are still around, whether they explicitly advocate genocide or not.)
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:00 AM   #62156
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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I know we probably agree, but I wish you used a different choice of words. Bad ideas are there to be crushed and suppressed.
Well it's a whirlwind thread right now, but if it wasn't clear in that single post I am talking specifically about free speech that is legally protected by the first amendment being censored by government action that is counter to the current law--i.e. An exception for ideology that advocates genocide or sympathizes with one that historically has.

Honestly, it's not possible even if it is righteous. The stupid mother****er in office and any untold millions of his followers, appointees etc will 100% make a case that pro immigration equals white genocide. They already have done. There is zero chance an exception that people are asking for itt works or stays unweaponized if it passes. You are handing them a tool to crash the whole, delicate structure and they have looked us in the face and said they want nothing else.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:00 AM   #62157
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Worked out better than our lack of a ban.



Incorrect in America. There are plenty of ideas that are against the law without action being necessary.
I'm sure I'm being dumb but I'm drawing a blank?
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:04 AM   #62158
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Expressing an interest in killing the president, for one.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:06 AM   #62159
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

That's not actually illegal, it just warrants an investigation.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:08 AM   #62160
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Expressing an interest in killing the president, for one.
That is a good counterpoint. I don't think it's a good law for the reasons I already stated.

I don't think there are lots of similar laws that criminalize thought though?
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:09 AM   #62161
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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That's not actually illegal, it just warrants an investigation.
Interesting. I thought it was illegal also.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:13 AM   #62162
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Now that I have googled it, it is in fact illegal to advocate killing the President.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:14 AM   #62163
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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That's not actually illegal, it just warrants an investigation.
Might be hell to pay when the investigation finds that you belong to the Assassination Club political group that has a history of assassinating people.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:15 AM   #62164
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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That is a good counterpoint. I don't think it's a good law for the reasons I already stated.

I don't think there are lots of similar laws that criminalize thought though?
Threats are not actions but they are illegal.

Also not protected speech: fighting words
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:20 AM   #62165
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Now that I have googled it, it is in fact illegal to advocate killing the President.
Maybe now's a good time to delete your browser history??
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:20 AM   #62166
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Desegregation seems like a mild word there.

Are there any cites on Fly's numerous alleged lies?
There's a good chance the "lies" are insults and hyperbole.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:21 AM   #62167
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Come to think if it, it's illegal to threaten to kill anyone, it's just the President gets protected from threats he didn't hear.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:21 AM   #62168
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Threats are not actions but they are illegal.

Also not protected speech: fighting words
Those do pose a problem to my thesis. They also illustrate why this is such a thorny issue. I'd argue it is because threats impose psychological damage but the obvious counter is nazi propoganda does so tenfold to minorities.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:23 AM   #62169
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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I don't see getting down in the gutter as eroding the foundations of democracy. I see it more like vibrant and passionate disagreement. The erosion of democracy comes when the state does it. You know when that happens because the actual act of suppression is done by the police. As I mentioned in a recent semi-serious response to bobman, I might consider suppression of speech by corporations in a similar light to government suppression. The issue is who has power. Ag-gag laws come to mind. The enforcement requires government, but the line between government and industry can get pretty blurry.
I think this is right. Anything that gets big enough to have power over society or population is going to require oversight. Including government itself.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:25 AM   #62170
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Now that I have googled it, it is in fact illegal to advocate killing the President.
Now that you have googled it, you are in fact under investigation.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:26 AM   #62171
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Those do pose a problem to my thesis. They also illustrate why this is such a thorny issue. I'd argue it is because threats impose psychological damage but the obvious counter is nazi propoganda does so tenfold to minorities.
This is the problem with absolutism: it doesn’t work in an imperfect world.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:26 AM   #62172
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Those do pose a problem to my thesis. They also illustrate why this is such a thorny issue. I'd argue it is because threats impose psychological damage but the obvious counter is nazi propoganda does so tenfold to minorities.
ergo, punch nazis


let's call it a night
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:27 AM   #62173
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Might be hell to pay when the investigation finds that you belong to the Assassination Club political group that has a history of assassinating people.
wp
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:33 AM   #62174
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Those do pose a problem to my thesis. They also illustrate why this is such a thorny issue. I'd argue it is because threats impose psychological damage but the obvious counter is nazi propoganda does so tenfold to minorities.
Threats are not illegal because of psychological damage. IANAL, but for a threat to someone's life (not counting specific ones to orange bozos) to be illegal it has to be credible. The idea I believe is to prevent a murder.

Someone who worked with me spent a year or so in jail (awaiting a trial that never happened) on a charge of "terrorist threat" for threatening to kill a man (about 25 years old) who beat up his 16 year old cousin. It was an injustice for sure as it was just something said in the heat of the moment and the guy had no weapons - didn't own a gun.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:35 AM   #62175
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Now that I have googled it, it is in fact illegal to advocate killing the President.
Well if this thread was under the radar before this, it sure as hell isn't now. Hi Feeds!
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