Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

02-03-2017 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raradevils
They also happen to be one of the biglyest nations for sponsoring terrorism. This also goes back to the hostage crisis of the 70's.
How many terrorist attacks on the United States in the past 30 years were actually sponsored by Iran?
02-03-2017 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacktheDumb
Adding to the democracy debate



https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.e7f2a5d80f86

The USA probably is somewhere on the line between being a flawed democracy or a Plutocracy.
Digging into that a bit more:
Quote:

Comparisons can also be drawn with all 180 parliamentary and presidential elections included in the latest report, covering 139 countries. The 2012 U.S. presidential election ranks 60th out of 180 elections worldwide, close to Bulgaria, Mexico and Argentina.

This is no one-time shortcoming. The 2014 U.S. congressional elections rank even worse, 65th out of 180 worldwide.

By contrast, elections in many newer democracies are seen by experts to perform far better in the global comparison, such as in Lithuania (ranked 4th), Costa Rica (6th), and Slovenia (8th).

(Author provided)

What produces these results? To explore this issue, EIP also conducted a second survey with almost 200 experts to compare the performance of the 2014 congressional elections across 21 U.S. states.

The results show that the worst problem across most states involved gerrymandering of district boundaries to favor incumbents. The mean score for U.S. states was just 42 on a 100-point scale.

Other weaknesses concerned whether electoral laws were unfair to smaller parties like the Green Party, favored the governing party or restricted voters’ rights.

Campaign finance — for example, whether parties and candidates had equitable access to public subsidies and political donations — was also seen by experts as a problem.

Finally, voter registration was also viewed critically. Issues here included whether the register itself was accurate, with, in some cases, citizens not listed, and, in others, ineligible voters registered.

By contrast, voting processes were rated more favorably. Factors here included whether any fraudulent votes were cast, whether the voting process was easy, whether voters were offered a genuine choice at the ballot box, along with the vote count and post-election results. These last two measures each received a high score of 85.
Quote:
In my book “Why Elections Fail,” I argue that a large part of the blame can be laid at the door of the degree of decentralization and partisanship in U.S. electoral administration. Key decisions about the rules of the game are left to local and state officials with a major stake in the outcome. For example, gerrymandering arises from leaving the processes of redistricting in the hands of state politicians, rather than more impartial judicial bodies.

Moreover, the role of money in U.S. campaigns has become progressively deregulated in recent decades, thanks in part to the Citizens United Supreme Court decision, while election costs have spiraled. Add to that the fuel of an inflammatory campaign by Trump, and the prospects for agreement about the outcome of the election become more remote.
02-03-2017 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
There are hours and hours and hours of J20 video available on uToob. We know exactly what happened, and the exact timelines. We don't need to speculate.

Cliffs: Many of the very small number who broke things and threw rocks got away with it. The majority of those pepper sprayed and arrested did nothing illegal at all.
Sure you do not need to speculate. You know but won't say that the timelines supports the store front windows being busted and bricks being thrown prior to tactics to disperse the crowd being employed.

I am not supporting the police arresting people who they did not see breaking the law. But you were complaining about the tactics being employed to disperse the crowd not the arrests. When you reach the point of property damage and assaulting police officers the crowd should be dispersed. Otherwise it continues to happen and your not able to arrest the perpetrators because of the crowd.
02-03-2017 , 12:56 PM
isnt it funny how all the best countries on this planet are located in scandi.
02-03-2017 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Not sure how much of this is just me being precious but I am starting to reconsider the effect of the sarcastic repetition of right wing talking points. I engage in it as much as anyone (if not more) but in the light of just how dumb most people have proved themselves to be what is the chance that there are large amounts of people missing the sarcasm and thinking "even liberals are talking about benghazi it must be serious business". Obviously blaming snarky libs for trump is not something I'm particularly fond of but in the age of fake news something as comparatively subtle as the above exchange might genuinely be muddying the waters for large groups of dumb people.

The go to for internet liberals does seem to be repeating republican talking points but in a sarcastic manner. I worry the sarcasm is disregarded and the fake news is unintentionally reinforced. It's going to be a tough habit to break especially for me but I think I'm personally going to try and tone it down. The benefit of me feeling superior (while important) doesn't outweigh even the small possibility that I'm causing damage to the progressive cause.
I was listening to an academic on this who had done research and just hearing something repeated even if it's being said it's not true, generally makes people more likely to believe it. I think the thesis was more that people are barely paying attention than just believing what they want. You hear "bowling green massacre" often enough and that's what you remember, not the varying discussion around it that you weren't paying close attention to.

It could be that the well thought out adjustment to make is what Trump has done. It's not the particular objectionable stories that get repeated, it's one simple phrase: "FAKE NEWS".
02-03-2017 , 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Not sure how much of this is just me being precious but I am starting to reconsider the effect of the sarcastic repetition of right wing talking points. I engage in it as much as anyone (if not more) but in the light of just how dumb most people have proved themselves to be what is the chance that there are large amounts of people missing the sarcasm and thinking "even liberals are talking about benghazi it must be serious business". Obviously blaming snarky libs for trump is not something I'm particularly fond of but in the age of fake news something as comparatively subtle as the above exchange might genuinely be muddying the waters for large groups of dumb people.

The go to for internet liberals does seem to be repeating republican talking points but in a sarcastic manner. I worry the sarcasm is disregarded and the fake news is unintentionally reinforced. It's going to be a tough habit to break especially for me but I think I'm personally going to try and tone it down. The benefit of me feeling superior (while important) doesn't outweigh even the small possibility that I'm causing damage to the progressive cause.
Agree completely
02-03-2017 , 12:59 PM
Birmingham Alabama issues resolution calling itself a Sanctuary City. It's impossible for Birmingham to be as much of a sanctuary city as some cities in California because of state laws like HB56, the Alabama anti-immigration law, but they're trying to make an effort. As big urban centers throughout the country make it known that they are open to immigration and even undocumented persons, will we see a big migration of immigrants to those so-called "sanctuary cities"?

http://www.wbrc.com/story/34390802/b...ity-resolution
Quote:
The Beason Hammon Act, also known as HB56, prohibits cities from setting policies that conflict with federal immigration law or state law. During the council meeting, city lawyers informed the council that violating the law could bring criminal and civil penalties and the loss of federal and state funding.

"The Council of the City of Birmingham shall exercise its power to ensure the equal protection, treatment, and representation of all persons without discrimination including, but not limited to, age, citizenship status, color, gender identity or expression, marital status, mental disability, national origin, physical disability, race, religion, religious observance, sexual orientation, and source or level of income..." the resolution reads.

The city also plans to set up a task force "to ensure a safe, secure and welcoming community for everyone, promoting respectful relations and collaboration between community members and those providing public safety services."
The Governor, as you can imagine, was not pleased:
Quote:
Governor Robert Bentley has responded to the resolution, saying the state will not support sanctuary cities.

“President Trump has already taken decisive and necessary action to enforce our nation’s immigration laws,” Governor Bentley said in a statement. “Alabama will not support sanctuary cities or institutions that harbor or shelter illegal immigrants, and are in clear violation of the laws of the nation.”
The Birmingham PD put out a statement as well with regards to the issue:
Quote:
The Birmingham Police Department released this statement regarding the recent immigration issues.

The Birmingham Police Department's number one priority is reducing violent crime so we welcome everyone to partner with this police department regardless of legal status. This department operates on the principles of community policing and the stated purpose of partnering with all of our citizens. Ultimately, the goal is for everyone to feel safe in our city without the presence of fear of being targeted because of national origin or immigration status. Enforcement of federal immigration laws is not a priority of this department. We had six ICE holds from 2012 to 2015 and none in 2016.
02-03-2017 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aflametotheground
isnt it funny how all the best countries on this planet are located in scandi.
I'm not completely sold on this yet, but the Democratic Federation of Northern Syria might be up there. I'm trying to mention it as often as possible before we ignore it (or participate) when Turkey, Syria and Russia destroy it.
02-03-2017 , 01:00 PM
Without typing more right now I think hashtagging Bowling Green Massacre and making jokes isn't particularly effective. Hasgtagging Muslim Ban is effective because that's exactly what the Administration didn't want it to be perceived as to persuadable moderates.
02-03-2017 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by champstark
How many terrorist attacks on the United States in the past 30 years were actually sponsored by Iran?
not my words:

"State Department report finds Iran is top state sponsor of terror"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politi...ort-terrorism/

"On Iran, the report said that country "remained the foremost state sponsor of terrorism in 2015, providing a range of support, including financial, training, and equipment, to groups around the world.""

Last edited by raradevils; 02-03-2017 at 01:05 PM. Reason: I didn't say against the US you did
02-03-2017 , 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Birmingham Alabama issues resolution calling itself a Sanctuary City. It's impossible for Birmingham to be as much of a sanctuary city as some cities in California because of state laws like HB56, the Alabama anti-immigration law, but they're trying to make an effort. As big urban centers throughout the country make it known that they are open to immigration and even undocumented persons, will we see a big migration of immigrants to those so-called "sanctuary cities"?

http://www.wbrc.com/story/34390802/b...ity-resolution


The Governor, as you can imagine, was not pleased:


The Birmingham PD put out a statement as well with regards to the issue:
The sanctuary city stuff is so frustrating it's up there on the WAAF list. City cops don't want to enforce immigration laws. It makes their jobs harder and it makes the people less safe. And yet almost all the cops still support Trump and all the other Trumpers still want to defund sanctuary cities or firebomb them or something.

Obviously the left has different reasoning behind the policy, but the right so happily cuts off its nose to spite its face.

OTOH, preventing crime in the cities is just concern trolling and they want to beatify cops without really supporting them.
02-03-2017 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raradevils
not my words:

"State Department report finds Iran is top state sponsor of terror"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politi...ort-terrorism/

"On Iran, the report said that country "remained the foremost state sponsor of terrorism in 2015, providing a range of support, including financial, training, and equipment, to groups around the world.""
The pieces are coming together for a war in Iran.
02-03-2017 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by np1235711
There isn't any argument that from reptiles on up most species have found an evolutionary advantage in being hard wired toward authority. not recognizing that fact is jsut foolish.
lol
02-03-2017 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob
The pieces are coming together for a war in Iran.
I still don't see how this is going to work. Who's going to invade? US soldiers who are currently in a 14 year war in Afghanistan and just getting out of Iraq? Who's going to lead the new government? Not the hardliners, and not the more liberal Iranians who might like Americans but are nationalists and would fight just as hard as the hardliners any invasion. You're going to either have a total war or an occupation, neither of which the US really has the chops for.
02-03-2017 , 01:12 PM
well thats sort of true in the sense that we establish hierarcies that tell us who is more respected and dominant than the next. that way we dont have to fight every day to determine who is higher ranked, we only need to fight it out once in a while when things are getting unclear. sounds like something that makes for a more productive living, yes.
02-03-2017 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by champstark
How many terrorist attacks on the United States in the past 30 years were actually sponsored by Iran?
None, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raradevils
not my words:

"State Department report finds Iran is top state sponsor of terror"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politi...ort-terrorism/

"On Iran, the report said that country "remained the foremost state sponsor of terrorism in 2015, providing a range of support, including financial, training, and equipment, to groups around the world.""
It goes back to Israel and Saudi Arabia. Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas (Shia and Sunni).

"Terrorism" is way overused though and I wouldn't use the term at all, especially Hamas. A lot of this violence should be treated like other military conflict. Pretty much by definition, peace can never be made with terrorist groups, but it can be made with military opponents.
02-03-2017 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob
The pieces are coming together for a war in Iran.
I hope not
02-03-2017 , 01:14 PM
The biggest terrorist threat to America right now is domestic white supremacist organizations and it's not even close.
02-03-2017 , 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
None, right?



It goes back to Israel and Saudi Arabia. Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas (Shia and Sunni).

"Terrorism" is way overused though and I wouldn't use the term at all, especially Hamas. A lot of this violence should be treated like other military conflict. Pretty much by definition, peace can never be made with terrorist groups, but it can be made with military opponents.
Hezbollah and Hamas, neither are for peace.
02-03-2017 , 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Not sure how much of this is just me being precious but I am starting to reconsider the effect of the sarcastic repetition of right wing talking points. I engage in it as much as anyone (if not more) but in the light of just how dumb most people have proved themselves to be what is the chance that there are large amounts of people missing the sarcasm and thinking "even liberals are talking about benghazi it must be serious business". Obviously blaming snarky libs for trump is not something I'm particularly fond of but in the age of fake news something as comparatively subtle as the above exchange might genuinely be muddying the waters for large groups of dumb people.

The go to for internet liberals does seem to be repeating republican talking points but in a sarcastic manner. I worry the sarcasm is disregarded and the fake news is unintentionally reinforced. It's going to be a tough habit to break especially for me but I think I'm personally going to try and tone it down. The benefit of me feeling superior (while important) doesn't outweigh even the small possibility that I'm causing damage to the progressive cause.
very well said.
I thought exactly the same after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqrahBJkKAs&t=1s
avout space exploration.
the girl used extrem sarcasm and this has to be one of the worst talks ever as she destroyed her own intention by using that sarcasm.
end result being tons of people turning of the video after 2mins and saying shes dumb and taking what she said at 1st level.
Then even stupider people coming in comment saying that sarcasm was obvious and video is adressed to intelligent people.

and here is the major flaw:
the people that got the sarcasm were already the convinced people.
only thing the fancy sarcasm did was to make the actual target(the average joe that you are trying to educate) flee and turn off the video.

Quote:
The benefit of me feeling superior (while important) doesn't outweigh even the small possibility that I'm causing damage to the progressive cause.
thats the feeling of the people praising the sarcasm use,they are so smart they dont see they are the one missing the point.

tldr:you cannot assume you will be understood ,and looking how trump communicates like a 5 year old, opposition should adjust as I dont see anyone pro trump criticizing that language style,hence it works for them (keep the fancy stuff for your diaries)
02-03-2017 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Digging into that a bit more:


As a Finn seeing that made me quite proud and happy. I often whine about my country being so boring and dull but I guess in the grand scheme of things boring is good. Idk if last year's statistics are in yet, but two years ago the entire Finnish police force fired 6 shots combined during the calendar year -- and five of those were warning shots. Our politics feel very non-serious too. Last time we came super close to electing this epic openly gay 60yo dude with a 25yo latin toyboy boyfriend for president (he seems like a great dude, I voted for him) and our politics mainly revolve around issues like whether stores should be allowed to sell liquor beyond 9PM.

Of course, we will probably be a part of Russia two years from now thanks to the orange führer, but for the time being I gotta say it's been a pleasure to live in a peaceful, boring country instead of a ****ed-up place like USA#1. If we somehow dodge WW3 I hereby promise to start appreciating my native country more.
02-03-2017 , 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl
It's not exactly true. Canada has first past the post voting and has multiple parties. It does create a huge incentive to lock down third parties and encourage tactical voting, which is what the two parties did via ballot access when third parties started popping up in the late 1800s/ early 1900s. After that it made it hard to get the momentum necessary to have a viable national third party
Yes, this. IMO the bigger problem is Louis' point about differences in populations between the states or, more to the point, the fact that representation in the EC is horribly skewed.

Like, when Wyoming gets 1 EC vote for every 194K people living there while California gets 1 EC vote for every 705K people, you have a deeply flawed electoral system which conveniently no one on the right seems to want to change because of reasons which cannot be fathomed.
02-03-2017 , 01:23 PM
The Bowling Green thing is deadly serious, for sure. It's a good point that sarcasm doesn't translate well over text, but damn sometimes it's just so ridiculous the things they say that I find myself repeating them just out of the sheer absurdity of it all.

02-03-2017 , 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl
I still don't see how this is going to work. Who's going to invade? US soldiers who are currently in a 14 year war in Afghanistan and just getting out of Iraq? Who's going to lead the new government? Not the hardliners, and not the more liberal Iranians who might like Americans but are nationalists and would fight just as hard as the hardliners any invasion. You're going to either have a total war or an occupation, neither of which the US really has the chops for.
We only have about 12000 troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. There are probably 20k in the Gulf States. An invasion of Iran would use a lot of Saudi troops and they have 300k.

In a war Iran would be bombed for 3 weeks anyway, ground invasion or not.

The US doesn't have the chops for an occupation, but that hasn't stopped us in the past.

I don't believe this will happen though because of the threat of the people in the streets of America. The warhawks will look at the stability at home and see that war is untenable.
02-03-2017 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Can't overstate how atrocious the TV media has been on this. I'm currently watching MSNBC and the PREMISE OF THE SEGMENT IS HOW KELLYANNE GOEBBLES SHOULD HANDLE HER MISTAKE.

THERE WAS NO MISTAKE YOU DUMB MOTHER****ERS
sigh


She flat out lied about it (there is no way to mistake what happened with a domestic massacre), but also restated the false equivalency about 'Obama's 6 month ban', AND she got in another shot at delegitimizing the media for not covering it.

Here's the key -- apologize for the "mistake" and call it day, leaving the other deceptions out there.

      
m