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Old 03-07-2017, 12:39 AM   #101
AllCowsEatGrass
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

It was a FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) court, not Obama.

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The most detailed account thus far, from the BBC in January, provided a timeline: The Justice Department sought a FISA warrant in June to intercept communications from two Russian banks suspected of facilitating donations to the Trump campaign. The judge reportedly rejected the warrant, as well as a narrower version sought in July. A new judge granted the order in mid-October, according to the BBC.
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-w...t-obama-worry/
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:42 AM   #102
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Well, let's just impeach Obama and Trump right now and call it even.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:40 AM   #103
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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First of all, it doesn't. Second of all, if a wiretap did happen, it was ordered by the DoJ independently, not Obama (the significance of the statement). Thirdly, if a wiretap did happen, Trump has much greater problems, as that means DoJ was able to go before a federal judge and produce probable cause that he was engaging in criminal activity.

And if Trump was colluding with a foreign power, of course the DoJ was right to investigate him. That's one of their jobs.
I guess what you don't understand is that if there were no investigation they wouldn't be going out of their way to stress "independent investigation" led by the Department of Justice. If the Obama administration were in a position to deny that wiretapping happened, they would in the public statement. Clearly, they were not so instead the claim is that the Department of Justice which is appointed by the President was acting independently.

Of course, Trump didn't accuse the Department of Justice of wiretapping, he accused Obama. So even if it were true that this investigation occurred without Obama's knowledge or blessing that still doesn't exclude the possibility that any of a number of intelligence organizations that also serve at the pleasure of the President didn't do so as well.

Not that any of this makes Trump a good guy, I just think it's funny you look at that statement and go 'welp Obama says it's all Kosher, good enough for me.'
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:06 AM   #104
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by r4diohe4d View Post
I guess what you don't understand is that if there were no investigation they wouldn't be going out of their way to stress "independent investigation" led by the Department of Justice. If the Obama administration were in a position to deny that wiretapping happened, they would in the public statement. Clearly, they were not so instead the claim is that the Department of Justice which is appointed by the President was acting independently.

Of course, Trump didn't accuse the Department of Justice of wiretapping, he accused Obama. So even if it were true that this investigation occurred without Obama's knowledge or blessing that still doesn't exclude the possibility that any of a number of intelligence organizations that also serve at the pleasure of the President didn't do so as well.

Not that any of this makes Trump a good guy, I just think it's funny you look at that statement and go 'welp Obama says it's all Kosher, good enough for me.'
If a wiretap happened that just means a JUDGE approved a warrant based on PROBABLE CAUSE of CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:21 AM   #105
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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If a wiretap happened that just means a JUDGE approved a warrant based on PROBABLE CAUSE of CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
Yeah that's not necessarily true whatsoever.

Plus what does that have to do with you misinterpreting an admission as being a denial?
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:58 AM   #106
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

I haven't interpreted anything, you're the one who keeps interpreting. I posted the original statement.

We do know the FBI interfered in the election. Comey violated the Hatch Act and acted in a direct political fashion to discredit Clinton during the voting period.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._director.html
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A former chief ethics lawyer at the White House, who served during George W. Bush’s presidency, has filed an ethics complaint against FBI Director James Comey. In an op-ed published in the New York Times on Sunday, Richard W. Painter writes that he filed a complaint against the FBI for violating the Hatch Act, "which bars the use of an official position to influence an election." He filed the complaint with both the Office of Special Counsel and the Office of Government Ethics.

Painter, who was the head White House ethics lawyer between 2005 and 2007 and now supports Hillary Clinton, says Comey violated the Hatch Act when he sent the letter to lawmakers on Friday informing them of the newly discovered emails. “This letter, which was quickly posted on the internet, made highly unusual public statements about an FBI investigation concerning a candidate in the election,” writes Painter. “The letter was sent in violation of a longstanding Justice Department policy of not discussing specifics about pending investigations with others, including members of Congress.”

Although Comey’s previous statements may be concerning, there is no actual evidence yet that the FBI director actually wanted to influence the election. Still, that is irrelevant as far as the Hatch Act is concerned.

Painter also warns that letting this precedent stand would be dangerous:

This is no trivial matter. We cannot allow FBI or Justice Department officials to unnecessarily publicize pending investigations concerning candidates of either party while an election is underway. That is an abuse of power. Allowing such a precedent to stand will invite more, and even worse, abuses of power in the future.
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Old 03-07-2017, 03:00 AM   #107
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Old 03-07-2017, 03:08 AM   #108
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Yeah that's not necessarily true whatsoever.

Plus what does that have to do with you misinterpreting an admission as being a denial?
That's how wiretaps work! It's absolutely true.
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Old 03-07-2017, 03:28 AM   #109
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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That's how wiretaps work! It's absolutely true.
Read FISA. It's absolutely not.

You posted the statement right after you said "Trump lies to the American people, tells them he was wiretapped by Obama." Now you say, if there was a wiretap it's because there was probable cause of criminal activity, (which also happens to be false.)

That's some interpretation for someone who hasn't interpreted anything.
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Old 03-07-2017, 04:07 AM   #110
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by r4diohe4d View Post
Read FISA. It's absolutely not.

You posted the statement right after you said "Trump lies to the American people, tells them he was wiretapped by Obama." Now you say, if there was a wiretap it's because there was probable cause of criminal activity, (which also happens to be false.)

That's some interpretation for someone who hasn't interpreted anything.
Everyone except known liar Donald Trump said Obama didnt do it. Trump has not indicated any evidence either. Saying "Trump lies to the American people," is not so much interpreting as it is, how you say, not being retarded.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:27 AM   #111
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Anyone can define fascism however they like, and therefore your hudge wall o'text is just partisan flimflam. But to directly answer your question, both are.
No they can't.

The definition is Palingenetic Ultranationalism. (palingenetic means "rebirth").

That is the only definition that correctly identifies fascist parties distinctly from other right-wing groups and doesn't run into several pages. It also stops people from calling everything they don't like fascist.

Hilary does not qualify as a fascist whatever else she might be. Trump, uses explicitly fascist language "Let's make America great again", which is what worries people who actually know about this stuff.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:48 AM   #112
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

The one saving grace of the historical fascists is that they tended to openly declare democracy (including representative republics, before anyone gets their panties in a twist) to be an inferior form of government. Not that I agree with them in the slightest, but there was at least a semblance of honesty.

Modern day fascism (in our "western" countries) pretends to be democratic so it can creep in with as few people as possible noticing. That is probably also its downfall, because at some point it will be easy to paint them as a bigger danger than the threats they conjure to convince voters. They will, however, do a lot of damage on the way. They might also put the world democracies' in a losing position against authoritarian regimes.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:27 PM   #113
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Old 03-07-2017, 08:02 PM   #114
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Old 03-07-2017, 08:06 PM   #115
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
Hi there, I want to make sure I understand your point... This scapegoating of... immigrants, in this case... is similar to what the Nazis did... Therefor, this is an indicator that the Trump Administration is Fascistic...
In a context where that's assumed to mean 'has fascist tendencies', sure. However, today's USA is much different than under the historic Eurofascists. In a context where nitpickers abound, I'd make sure to add the 'tendencies', or perhaps use 'neo-fascist' instead.

Quote:
... Also, do you take issue with einbert's characterization of Socialism? If so, why?...
einbert didn't characterize socialism ITT. He said some of what he characterized as fascist regimes/etc have been socialist. This is clearly at odds with the historic Eurofascist regimes/etc, and outside common academic use.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:12 PM   #116
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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einbert didn't characterize socialism ITT. He said some of what he characterized as fascist regimes/etc have been socialist. This is clearly at odds with the historic Eurofascist regimes/etc, and outside common academic use.
Yeah I was basically wrong about that. Fascism is a directly right-wing ideology.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:40 PM   #117
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

[DELETED: POSSIBLY FAKE NEWS]

Last edited by einbert; 03-07-2017 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:49 PM   #118
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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The original is pretty interesting.

Who are the 10% who don't think open and fair elections are important for a strong democracy?

Notably there is not a strong difference for these questions among different age groups.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:51 PM   #119
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

I think the Bannon tweet is fake and his twitter is StephenBannon.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:59 PM   #120
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Steve Bannon is a dude in Scotland, has twitter and gets mixed up with our POS

https://twitter.com/stevebannon?lang=en
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:12 PM   #121
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Who are the 10% who don't think open and fair elections are important for a strong democracy?
People who understand but still support voter suppression through strict ID laws, gerrymandering, and E.C. I'd guess. I'm surprised that many people are that self-aware though.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:27 PM   #122
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
The original is pretty interesting.

Who are the 10% who don't think open and fair elections are important for a strong democracy?

Notably there is not a strong difference for these questions among different age groups.
Inherent in that question is a presumption that what goes on in US elections is free and fair.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:57 PM   #123
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Yup. Nothing at all fascist about HRC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.5bdba4e5edd9
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:17 PM   #124
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

SoS's primary job description is to travel around the world as a booster for ginormous US business interests. Boeing is a favorite and Condoleezza Rice traveled to India to lobby for a Boeing sale and probably a lot of other places.

This may meet one of the criteria for fascism, but I don't think it's the whole thing.
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:51 PM   #125
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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SoS's primary job description is to travel around the world as a booster for ginormous US business interests. Boeing is a favorite and Condoleezza Rice traveled to India to lobby for a Boeing sale and probably a lot of other places.

This may meet one of the criteria for fascism, but I don't think it's the whole thing.
My only point is to illustrate that this view that "yesterday we had democracy, and today we have fascism because of Trump", is a fantasy.

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