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Old 07-31-2016, 09:09 AM   #1
einbert
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The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

In another thread, somebody asked me the following question. I thought it was a great question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Don't take it seriously enough, and you vote in President Trump and it's game over--this great American experiment has no guarantee of persistence. It literally depends on us as voters to keep it going by voting in competent leaders. Politics is not a game, it has very real consequences which sadly is only a view taken by half of the political spectrum right now it seems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky
what about the people who completely agree with you, except they say Clinton where you say trump?

what do you say to them?
I feel like this issue deserves its own thread because it doesn't seem to really fit directly into any of the other threads. Before I post my answer, let's do a little defining because we all know the "f-bomb" gets thrown around a lot.

Quote:
Fascism
A class of political ideologies (and historical political regimes) that takes its name from the movement led by Benito Mussolini that took power in Italy in 1922. Mussolini's ideas and practices directly and indirectly influenced political movements in Germany (especially the Nazi Party), Spain (Franco's Falange Party), France, Argentina, and many other European and non-European countries right up to the present day.

The different "fascist" movements and regimes have varied considerably in their specific goals and practices, but they are usually said to be characterized by several common features:

1. Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

2. The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law

3. Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

4. Militant anti-Communism coupled with the belief in an extreme and imminent threat to national security from powerful and determined Communist forces both inside and outside the country

5. Contempt for democratic socialism, democratic capitalism, liberalism, and all forms of individualism as weak, degenerate, divisive and ineffective ideologies leading only to mediocrity or national suicide

6. Glorification of physical strength, fanatical personal loyalty to the leader, and general combat-readiness as the ultimate personal virtues

7. A sophisticated apparatus for systematically propagandizing the population into accepting these values and ideas through skilled manipulation of the mass media, which are totally monopolized by the regime once the movement comes to power

8. A propensity toward pursuing a militaristic and aggressive foreign policy

9. Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.

[See also: totalitarianism, propaganda, dictatorship, autocracy]
Source: http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/fascism

Please notice that fascism is not something that is confined to the spectrum of left or right. In particular, you can find societies throughout history that have fallen into extreme left wing and extreme right wing regimes, and these have each been fascist regimes quite often. Republicans often like to point out the failures of socialism in countries like Venezuela and Cuba, but it is important to know that this socialism is almost always a fascist style of socialist government. In this form of socialism, the government is completely controlled by one or a very small number of people and if people don't go along with it, well they disappear or they end up in prison camps, and possibly their whole family ends up in the camp if they flee the country. Think North Korea. Again, the important point to remember is that fascism is not confined to one economic philosophy. It's about control, and a lack of certain fundamental liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of enterprise, freedom of movement, freedom of religion, and so on.

Now please note I am NOT saying that electing Donald Trump would make us North Korea overnight. As others have pointed out, we have many checks and balances in place and a very strong foundation in our country's founding documents. But that doesn't mean we can't be pulled in the direction of fascism by President Trump. We have already, to some extent been pulled towards the spectrum of fascism by accepting mass incarceration, a War on Drugs, and an assault on our fourth amendment rights by a Supreme Court which seems to no longer value such rights. It is crucial that we consider the consequences of electing any President, and what that would do to us as a country as far as pushing us on the fascist/not fascist spectrum.

With that introduction, here is my full reply to the question:
Quote:
Basically this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrump...hy_trump_is_a/
Quote:
A final response to the "Tell me why Trump is a fascist".

Trump openly calls for the U.S to commit war crimes and advocates for the murder of innocent women and children.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...amily-members/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6912496.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/politi...ists-families/
http://www.dailywire.com/news/3891/t...s-ben-shapiro/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ry-commit-war/


Trump doubles down after veterans speak out claiming U.S soldiers would not commit war crimes or torture children even if ordered to. Trump responds with, “They’re not going to refuse me. If I say do it, they’re going to do it.“
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ry-commit-war/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ar-donald-tru/
http://theweek.com/speedreads/610361...ure-war-crimes
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opi...0307-0011.html
http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/03/do...-wont-refuse-h
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/03/a-re...es-war-crimes/
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/1..._to_commit_war


Trump on torture: “Even if it doesn’t work they probably deserved it anyway.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/11/opinio...rican-torture/
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...hey-deserve-it
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...hey-deserve-it


Trump renews calls for torture citing public executions and mass rape committed by ISIS promising for the U.S to do the same, “fighting fire with fire.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...arding-torture

Trump says Geneva Conventions a problem and needs to be changed since, US soldiers are to afraid to do their job due to laws which outline the definition of war crimes.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-g...21394?cmpid=sf

Trump says he, "won’t rule out” using nuclear weapons in Europe.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6961101.html

Trump says he would declare a World War as President.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2712682
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2016/...e-nice-france/
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/07/tr...-world-war-iii


Trump praises Iraqi Dictator Saddam Hussein.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/07...hussein/211359
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/05/politi...raq-terrorism/


Trump retweets quote from Italian Dictator Benito Mussolini.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35682844
http://time.com/4240330/donald-trump...ssolini-quote/
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/firs...-to-mussolini/


Trump uses picture of Nazi soldiers in official campaign poster.
https://news.vice.com/article/donald...icenewstwitter

Trump picks famed Neo-Nazi White Supremacist Leader as Delegate.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ate-california
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti..._in_California
http://www.nationalmemo.com/trump-pi...r-as-delegate/


Trump's son gives interview with Holocaust denying radio show host who wants to bring back slavery. Trump then gives the radio host press credentials and invites him to events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Po..._Jr._interview
http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-g...20120?lo=ap_c1
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...ite-radio-show
http://www.nationalmemo.com/donald-t...e-supremacist/


Trump tweets anti-Semitic Hillary Clinton picture created by Neo-Nazis.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/02/politi...llary-clinton/
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/07/...neo-nazis.html
https://mic.com/articles/147711/dona...sts#.Z7LCceAS9
http://time.com/4392186/donald-trump...avid-backlash/
https://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/tru...of-david-post/


Legal Experts find dozens of Trump policy propositions that would violate the constitution. “Trump is threat to rule of law.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/04/us...ion-power.html

Trump Retweets message from Pro-Hitler, white genocide conspiracy Twitter account multiple times.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...cidetm-retweet
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...e-twitter-user
http://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-r...-in-jewmerica/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.2506735
The list goes on and on and on. Donald Trump is dangerous not because he's conservative, not because he's a Republican, even though those are both things I generally disagree with. He's a FASCIST. He's utterly dangerous in ways that George W Bush was not even close to touching, even with all of his Orwellian doublespeak. There's a reason that guy who worked in the Reagan administration went up to the podium yesterday to proclaim that Trump was a danger. This is no joke. That is a long clip but it is only a small fraction of the whole list, I highly recommend you peruse the whole thing when you get a chance.

Some other things which I assume you are actually already aware of: He wants to ban Muslims from entering the country, violating Constitutional guarantees of equal protection and violating the principle of religious liberty that this country was absolutely founded on. He wants to build an expensive wall to block people from immigrating from Mexico, when net migration from Mexico is currently negative!
Source: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/

He claims he is the "law and order" President, and does not speak about police brutality or mass incarceration. In his world, these are not problems but solutions! Clinton and the DNC made both of these issues a big central part of their convention, while also showing that they respect and appreciate the police. It's the system that's broken, but Trump wants to basically make things worse. He doesn't seem to have even a basic understanding of the Constitution, or how our system of government functions. He hasn't laid out one single solitary concrete plan for anything, it's all smoke and mirrors and "we're gonna win!" and magical strongman religious bull****. He has challenged the integrity of our judiciary, claiming that basically noone but a white, American-born judge can be unbiased against him. Even that judge could be biased against him if he is Muslim, and do you not get why that is bad?

He has been involved in thousands, thousands of lawsuits, and has a track record of consistently not paying people who have done work for him. What about that is good business? He will run the country the same way, running roughshod over other countries until it starts a war. He doesn't have the temperament necessary to run a successful PTA, let alone a country. He doesn't have any focus. His ghostwriter, who spent 18 months full time with him, says so personally.
Source: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...iter-tells-all

This guy is afraid Trump will start a petty nuclear war over just about anything. Oh and I haven't even gotten into how he's cuddling up to Putin and pushing anti-Ukraine language into the GOP platform. This guy is incredibly dangerous and the fact that people can't see that startles me.
Alright, have at it then.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=17919

Last edited by Mat Sklansky; 07-31-2016 at 10:48 AM. Reason: links don't work in the quoted post
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Old 07-31-2016, 09:25 AM   #2
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

To quote the almighty wiki, 'Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[22]' and therein lies the rub. Anyone can define fascism however they like, and therefore your hudge wall o'text is just partisan flimflam. But to directly answer your question, both are.
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Old 07-31-2016, 09:27 AM   #3
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regret$ View Post
To quote the almighty wiki, 'Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[22]' and therein lies the rub. Anyone can define fascism however they like, and therefore your hudge wall o'text is just partisan flimflam. But to directly answer your question, both are.
Really? It seems like Trump's campaign personally embodies these two descriptions:
Quote:
1. Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

2. The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law
While Clinton's campaign does nothing of the sort. So please explain how she is as fascist as Trump is.
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Old 07-31-2016, 09:52 AM   #4
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

I do not see that numbered list of characteristics on www.wikipedia.org, therefore its like your opinion. I'm really not trying to be rude. I would define fascism as an organization of government where business is the primary influence.
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Old 07-31-2016, 09:56 AM   #5
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

It's from a page on Auburn University's website, "A Glossary of Political Terms," apparently written by a Dr. Paul M. Johnson. I agree that fascism has multiple definitions depending on who you speak to and that discussion should definitely be part of this thread.

Here's the link again: http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/fascism
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:13 AM   #6
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Surely you've been here long enough to know that you don't put this much effort into responding to a Sklansky, right?
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:37 AM   #7
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

i appreciate his effort.
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:38 AM   #8
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Good article, long read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umberto Eco
Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.

But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages—in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a silver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

...

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.
Just an excerpt. There's a lot more.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:57 AM   #9
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

You realize who beat the natzis right?
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Old 07-31-2016, 11:04 AM   #10
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by Regret$ View Post
I do not see that numbered list of characteristics on www.wikipedia.org, therefore its like your opinion. I'm really not trying to be rude. I would define fascism as an organization of government where business is the primary influence.
Not sure which is funnier: the insistence that all human knowledge can be found in wikipedia or the immediate advancement of some wonky, non-wikipedia endorsed theory of fascism.
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Old 07-31-2016, 11:05 AM   #11
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Oh wait no it's actually "natzis." That's the funniest.
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Old 07-31-2016, 11:08 AM   #12
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by Regret$ View Post
You realize who beat the natzis right?
Russia and the RAF?
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Old 07-31-2016, 11:42 AM   #13
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

you guys must love trump

theres 4 threads on him on the front page
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Old 07-31-2016, 12:16 PM   #14
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert View Post
...Please notice that fascism is not something that is confined to the spectrum of left or right... socialism is almost always a fascist style of socialist government... In this form of socialism, the government is completely controlled by one or a very small number of people... Again, the important point to remember is that fascism is not confined to one economic philosophy. It's about control, and a lack of certain fundamental liberties...

Alright, have at it then.
This is all gibberish. Gibberish of the Dictionary Thinking variety.

Sometimes peeps spew the f-word as a name for a school of ideologies, sometimes peeps spew the f-word is a description of a state of things, sometimes peeps spew the f-word as propaganda, sometimes peeps spew the f-word as an insult, sometimes peeps spew the f-word because they like the way it sounds. There's surely other reasons peeps spew the f-word, and none of these reasons are mutually exclusive.

Well, how are you spewing the f-word ITT?

First, you are explicitly excluding the 'school of ideologies' meaning ("fascism is not something that is confined to the spectrum of left or right"). Instead you are explicitly and exclusively identifying the 'description of a state of things' meaning ITT ("It's about control, and a lack of certain fundamental liberties"). IMO you are also spewing the f-word as propaganda, you're spewing the f-word as an insult, and you're spewing the f-word because you like the way it sounds.

Alright, have at me then.

Last edited by Shame Trolly !!!1!; 07-31-2016 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 07-31-2016, 12:20 PM   #15
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Shame Trolly,

Again I refer you to points 1 and 2. They seem to sum up Trump's campaign quite effectively in just a couple of sentences. These are not my writing, again, but a Political Science Professor at Auburn University:

Quote:
1. Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

2. The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law
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Old 07-31-2016, 12:51 PM   #16
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Shame Trolly,

Again I refer you to points 1 and 2...
Well, what social scientists do, is they look for certain historical similarities that provide academically useful categories. To effectively communicate regarding these categories, they give them names. You're doing things the other way around, what I call 'Dictionary Thinking'.

In this case, social scientists noticed certain historical similarities in particular Euro regimes in the mid 20th century. They find this catagory academically useful as these regimes correlate perfectly with war mongering, among other outcomes. They named this category 'fascism'.

That's not what you're doing. You're editorially picking and choosing which of those similarities you wanna count as indicative of 'einbert-fascism' (ex: strongman cult), and which of those similarities you don't wanna count as indicative of 'einbert-facism' (ex: virulent anti-socialism).
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:02 PM   #17
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Shame, seems like you're kind of nit-picking a bit. Would you disagree with the statement that: Much of Trump's rhetoric and proposals have strong similarities to characteristics of prior fascist leaders?
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:04 PM   #18
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Russia and the RAF?
With the help of fascists, sure.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:05 PM   #19
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
you guys must love trump

theres 4 threads on him on the front page
Or maybe it's that choosing the next leader of the United States is incredibly important to the country and the world in general, and so having discussion about an unqualified and dangerous candidate for the position is important. If Hillary were as dangerous to the country and to the stability of our nation / the world in general then there would be a lot more threads discussing those threats.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:10 PM   #20
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Imo Hillary is more of the same disaster. Trump is ??? surprise disaster.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:11 PM   #21
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Russia and the RAF?
US dropped slightly more bombs and flew slightly more missions on Germany than Britain did. We got into the war later, but 80% of allied bombs were dropped after the start of 1944.
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:16 PM   #22
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Which is more value, $ or people?
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:17 PM   #23
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

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Originally Posted by Regret$ View Post
Imo Hillary is more of the same disaster. Trump is ??? surprise disaster.
If you think disaster is guaranteed, why bother voting?
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:18 PM   #24
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

I don't plan to vote for either HRC or DMFT

Last edited by Regret$; 07-31-2016 at 01:19 PM. Reason: there is a chance i will vote hrc, but not a good one
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Old 07-31-2016, 01:26 PM   #25
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Re: The Potential Rise of Fascism in the US: "I alone can fix it"

Hmm ok. What part of "more of the same" do you consider to be disastrous?

I understand why e.g. Sanders supporters who hate poverty consider the status quo to be a disaster.

But people like you who are more or less successful, and not overwrought with empathy for hungry African-American children...why do you think the status quo is a disaster?
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