The truly terrifying thing about trumpism is how it's exposed that most of our institutions require a commonly understood objective view of reality and broadly good faith participation from a wide range of people. If enough people deny reality everything breaks.

If jury convicts on some charges and is hung on others, what are the prosecutors options? Can they just retry some of the charges?

It should be at least 99% IMO.

Speaking of

WaPo op ed from a former judge: The extraordinary bias of the judge in the Manafort trial

If 80% is your threshold as a juror you can just always vote guilty without paying attention to the trial. The DA believing the guy is guilty plus a judge allowing a trial is good enough for 80%.

But the trial adds information. Gotta update your prior, the 80% you set before any arguments were heard.

That’s my point. No information presented at trial can ever take you to below 80%. f he has an airtight alibi or there is physical evidence he didn’t do it it wouldn’t have gone to trial to begin with. At the end of the trial the DA still thinks the guy is guilty and the judge hasn’t thrown out the case.

No, I disagree with that. The trial can provide information that puts it above or below the pre-argument figure (or below 80%, whatever's lower).

These points aren't mutually exclusive...

Then the problem is with DAs and judges bringing awful cases where the guy has an excellent case of being innocent to trial. I don’t think that’s the case, especially in federal court.

This debacle has definitely highlighted how easy it is to get away with this ****. The only reason Manafort got caught is Trump being a traitor and a dip**** with dip****s around him. I've gotta believe 95%+ of money laundering scumbags are better at it and substantially none get caught absent bad luck.

In federal court it's pretty unlikely, esp white collar crime, but the case is not necessarily awful if there is a greater-than-20-percent chance the guy is innocent. There is no guilt determination level in preliminary hearings or grand juries or whatever.

Some law guys have a high degree of faith in the system (see licitus, simp). A more aggressive prosecutor can figure "I'm fairly sure the guy is guilty, we have some good evidence, and he has a good lawyer. If he's not, the jury will figure it out." I read a book partially about how guys like that were getting sidelined at the justice department (in regards to white collar crime). That goes partially to your point, but my point is they exist, and the trial will let you know as a juror what kind of prosecutor/case you're dealing with.

A criminal justice system where 20% of those charged are innocent sounds terrible. Defending yourself at trial is an expensive, life altering punishment in itself for most people.

+1

20% of people who are charged being demonstrably innocent would be absolutely heinous.

ATC, was the book you're referring to The Chicken**** Club, or something else?

That's the one. Good book imo.

Right. Putting a percentage on it gets into lol Sklansky territory, but the prosecution has to have a good faith belief that any defendant is guilty of the crimes being charged with and the judge not throwing it out is a further restriction, meaning not only is the DA pretty confident but rules were followed by the DA and police which are in place to protect the rights of even the guilty. An innocent person’s fate being in the hands of a jury already means people have f’ed up pretty badly. My original point was obv meant sort of tounge and cheek. The jury shouldn’t take that into account bc they are designed to be a fully independent check.

Another note from the jury

Or one person thinking they could get 15k/month out of it.

https://twitter.com/ShimonPro/status...28690839543808

of course this trial is a total ****show why wouldn't it be

Someone has to be sure they make it to spin class on time, I guess.

you better be damn sure I made us finish our deliberations when I was foreman before the opening ceremonies of the Vancouver Olympics.
I did it in an ethical way though that none of the other jury members would have noticed or even an astute observer would have complained.

Why isn't this jury sequestered?

The judge is getting death threats and the jury just going to go out and party this weekend? Wtf