They sacrificed their own lives. Suppose the building were full of people who could defend themselves...defend themselves how, by killing the attackers? The attackers obv weren't afraid of that, so it's not like their choice of target was to minimize retaliation.

But nor would I call them brave, because they basically wanted to die and see their 72 virgins. So maybe I picked a bad example, the attackers don't fall into the normal coward/brave spectrum. Suicidal nutjobs perhaps can't be described by those adjectives to begin with.

Anyway, as for the Bundy guys, I don't think they want(ed) to die, but I can believe them when they say they're willing to.

my initial reaction is that the first scenario is much more likely than the second.

< thinks about all that has happened since the beginning of this >

yup. first scenario much more likely. i'd even go as far to say that the LE wasn't trigger happy, he likely had every reason to shoot.

i could be wrong. but given that given the kid gloves that the whole situation has been handled with, the prior waco ****up, etc., i find it hard to believe that a planned fbi operation (which this appeared to be) ended with fbi agents executing someone in the manner that has been described. i think it is pretty likely that the agents who were part of the operation were carefully chosen.

it will be interesting to see the fbi/state police report of the operation.

There is a lot of variance in the US justice system. Yes, we have a very alarming number bigoted, idiotic, power hungry douchebag cops who spend all day fantasizing about being the action movie hero who metes out true justice while disregarding all notions of due process. We also have a lot of very professional, well-trained law enforcement officers who take their job seriously and don't rattle in high stress situations. The people involved in what was likely a planned operation and part of a very deliberate strategy to keep things as low key as possible are faaar more likely to be in the latter group.

As long as we want to get our news from Facebook, someone claiming he was the driver of the stopped y'allqaeda car is claiming Tarp Man was shot when he "charged police".

Fits my preconceptions better, but I'm still still not sold on the source.

lol @ this

Tons of black people are pissed off that they're getting gunned down on the reg by police? Who cares?

20 white guys armed to the teeth took over federal land and one of them died in a possibly armed confrontation with police? White and black people alike won't stand for this government intervention! Huge problem now exists that didn't before!!

Two eyewitness accounts now saying he charged law enforcement.

"charged" police? Is that copspeak for "walked toward police?"

I dunno... these guys seem crazy but not "suicide by cop" crazy.

Watch the videos, esp. the second. These are guys in the movement saying he charged, not random passersby.

nimo

Man, maybe this guy was even dumber than I thought.

He drove into a snow bank trying to avoid a police barricade. It's possible he thought he was trying to escape by running and just happened to be disoriented, having just hit a snowbank and all, and ran towards police instead of away from them

It fits the terrorist modus operandi

Chick that was in the car when Tarp Man was shot recorded talking about the confrontation.

I for one am shocked that we are hearing information that contradicts what we heard from a random facebook post and unvetted sources "close" to the situation and indicates the deceased did exactly what they said they would do.

Now everyone get the **** out of the refuge before we get another senseless death. We're lucky there's only been one death and zero innocents killed from this year of militia bull****.

This

(we got our...) #GunsOutDon'tShoot (at us)

bingo. i think that it is VERY unlikely that the fbi didn't carefully choose their operatives in this operation.

and i'm no fan of cops.

I come here for the breaking news and you guys let me down. Were his pants sagging or what smh.

I've defended several people in this forum I thought were kind of scummy after they got killed by cops.

Then being aggressive violent armed thugs is skewing my view of the details. I fully admit this, have done in most of my posts I think. I give a lot more credit to the claims of resitstance than I would normally.

The only source other than that uToob naming a "Victoria Sharp" as being involved is InfoWars.

actually it's the definition of psychopathic. cowardice has nothing to do with it.

tomdemaine is elite, but i mostly disagree with him on this one. these guys are stupid provocative *******s who openly carry everywhere they go and have made numerous threats and promises to exact their demands through violent force. **** them, i don't feel bad about them getting arrested and shot. and i certainly dont believe their kumbaya bull**** about being victims here.

i am totally, unironically #teamwaitforthefacts on this one. i do expect the FBI to be mostly vindicated in this one tho, given the circumstances.

this

This. These are the same guys who arrested the Boston Marathon bomber without incident. They've seen much more dangerous situations than this without firing any shots.


Nope.

Even if these guys totally had it coming, the outcome isn't something that should be celebrated.

Wasn't the boat that kid was hiding under riddled with bullets?