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Old 07-14-2012, 02:22 PM   #1101
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Originally Posted by StoneNit View Post
America is not some mystical perfect country. All countries are designed and comprised of humans and humans historically have shown to be anything but infallible. Winston Churchill once said something along the lines of "democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried" and in the spirit of that quote I think that while America is certainly not perfect it is the best country and government we have been able to form to date. America is a shining example of everything we can do right and should protect as a people, and at its core are fundamental rights and principles enshrined into law above all else.

So to answer the question, yes I do believe America is better than all other countries. Not because of some divine grace, not because we have the strongest military or largest economy, not because we have some perceived strength in a particular field, but rather because of the core fundamental principles and freedoms that America was conceived in and continue to (or at least try to) maintain. The United States of America was the first country to take many of the contemporary radical ideas of liberty from Enlightenment Period and base a country around them. We were the first modern Constitutional Republic and currently the oldest amoung other countries who predate our own by hundreds if not thousands of years.

In the end America is the land of opportunity and freedom and that is certainly something to be proud of. We have immigration problems because we have a country people are willing to risk their lives and break the law to enter. Our detractors may try to misrepresent certain facts and statistics on this issue or that out of spite or jealousy without proper context, but Americans generally have never cared what the talking mouths of western Europe have had to say. Any problems within America will be fixed within a manner that best suits the needs of our people, not to appease the socialist democracies of the West or the oppressive despots of the East. America has and always will stand for liberty, what is right, and the fundamental rights of mankind.
How bout the right to play poker? These utterly vacuous and trite word bombs of purple prose fall apart with the slightest inspection.
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Old 07-14-2012, 02:59 PM   #1102
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Yet with all this Liberty, we still are not even close to being the most educated nation anymore. lulz.
I think that goes back to my point about misrepresentation of certain statistics or at least omitting proper context. In America, one of the most diverse and populated countries in the world, every student gets an education and every student takes certain federal and other testing that reflects upon the entire country. In China for instance their singular educational goal is performing well on international testing, period. Of a Chinese population of about 1.3 billion only a slim minority, meritoriously based, advance in their education and take their testing. Their entire system is based on rigid formulaic educational indoctrination and yet they still transfer in obscene amounts to America for higher learning. For all their test scores how far have they come in human rights from the genocides under Mao to Tiananmen Square and beyond? Have they yet cured the millions who die of starvation or pollution and unsanitary conditions each year? If becoming like China is the cost of very limited success in testing I say damn the testing. We have educational problems to be sure in the United States but our greatest period of stagnation has come from trying to emulate the failings of the Chinses model and teaching to testing rather than genuine learning and education.

For America not being the most "educated" nation we certainly have a monopoly on the greatest minds and innovators of our time, as well as to mention largest industry productivity and growth. A free nation encourages, cultivates, and attracts the best because it does not stifle their creativity and allows for genius and success to flourish independently and unmolested.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:10 PM   #1103
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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For America not being the most "educated" nation we certainly have a monopoly on the greatest minds and innovators of our time, as well as to mention largest industry productivity and growth. A free nation encourages, cultivates, and attracts the best because it does not stifle their creativity and allows for genius and success to flourish independently and unmolested.
Haha...

NASA not getting propers funds for space exploration is innovative how?

Japan has beaten us with technology and education for how long?

There is a difference between being patriotic and blind. America's a mess...
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:41 PM   #1104
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Haha...

NASA not getting propers funds for space exploration is innovative how?

Japan has beaten us with technology and education for how long?

There is a difference between being patriotic and blind. America's a mess...
Funding NASA for the sake of funding NASA is folly. Some practical return or gain for the continued funding of the program is not an unreasonable expectation, especially not in a period of hardship and recession. We have genuine problems in America and we need to prioritize, no apologies are needed with respect to defunding NASA. As a matter of fact a number of independent American companies have stepped up and are in many respect fulfilling the role NASA played without the cost to the American tax payer.

You're talking about Japan now? You do realize that Japan has been economically stagnating for the past 20 years right? We handled our banking and property crisis the way their handled theirs and it is worth noting they still haven't recovered. I mean that is literally one of the worst examples you could have choosen. I won't even go into detail about their cultural problems with their generation of manchildren and perverts.

I have never denied that America has problems, we absolutely do. My point however is that we are still the prime model of success and prosperity in the world and when we look for possible solutions we should not look at the regressive molds of other failed states for answers.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:56 PM   #1105
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
How bout the right to play poker? These utterly vacuous and trite word bombs of purple prose fall apart with the slightest inspection.
I don't see how your criticism on the federal prohibition of online poker invalidates any points I have made. How much more clear can I be? I said America was NOT perfect and certainly NOT infallible. I think the ban was a mistake, substantively as well as legally, as do many Americans, and that is way a number of states and legislators are working towards its repeal. My message has always been one of pro-freedom so I don't see why you'd use the ban against me.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:57 PM   #1106
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Funding NASA for the sake of funding NASA is folly. Some practical return or gain for the continued funding of the program is not an unreasonable expectation, especially not in a period of hardship and recession. We have genuine problems in America and we need to prioritize, no apologies are needed with respect to defunding NASA. As a matter of fact a number of independent American companies have stepped up and are in many respect fulfilling the role NASA played without the cost to the American tax payer.

You're talking about Japan now? You do realize that Japan has been economically stagnating for the past 20 years right? We handled our banking and property crisis the way their handled theirs and it is worth noting they still haven't recovered. I mean that is literally one of the worst examples you could have choosen. I won't even go into detail about their cultural problems with their generation of manchildren and perverts.

I have never denied that America has problems, we absolutely do. My point however is that we are still the prime model of success and prosperity in the world and when we look for possible solutions we should not look at the regressive molds of other failed states for answers.
And the U.S. is a beacon of economic success in the past 20 years?

America doesn't have perverts and manchildren?

C'mon guy... lol
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:13 PM   #1107
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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And the U.S. is a beacon of economic success in the past 20 years?

America doesn't have perverts and manchildren?

C'mon guy... lol
Well yes actually, America has been a beacon of economic success not just for the past 20 years but for about the past 70 or so. True we have been stagnating in recent years, as have many other countries, but we still are the most prosperous nation in the world with wealth and comfort that others can only dream of. We are extremely fortunate without question.

And the point I was making about perverts and manchildren in Japan is a national and cultural epidemic there. I'm not merely talking about an inconvenience of frat boy like men in America, I'm talking about an entire generation of emotionally and socially crippled men in Japan that is literally breaking their country.
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:21 PM   #1108
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Well yes actually, America has been a beacon of economic success not just for the past 20 years but for about the past 70 or so. True we have been stagnating in recent years, as have many other countries, but we still are the most prosperous nation in the world with wealth and comfort that others can only dream of. We are extremely fortunate without question.

And the point I was making about perverts and manchildren in Japan is a national and cultural epidemic there. I'm not merely talking about an inconvenience of frat boy like men in America, I'm talking about an entire generation of emotionally and socially crippled men in Japan that is literally breaking their country.

Well, I guess all of that is really beside my real point anyhow. Which is: I do not think Americans should be worrying about where are status in the world is, but improving our homeland for own citizens. Figuring out our short falls and correcting them.
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:27 PM   #1109
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Well, I guess all of that is really beside my real point anyhow. Which is: I do not think Americans should be worrying about where are status in the world is, but improving our homeland for own citizens. Figuring out our short falls and correcting them.
Well on that final point I think we agree. We may differ on the right path to improve our country, on the how, but we both see the problems and desire to correct them.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:12 PM   #1110
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Originally Posted by StoneNit View Post
I don't see how your criticism on the federal prohibition of online poker invalidates any points I have made. How much more clear can I be? I said America was NOT perfect and certainly NOT infallible. I think the ban was a mistake, substantively as well as legally, as do many Americans, and that is way a number of states and legislators are working towards its repeal. My message has always been one of pro-freedom so I don't see why you'd use the ban against me.
LOL are u packing all cans?

You say its imperfect then make purple prose claims about how it is teh best and has all these high ideals blah de blah. Its just waffle. But its nothing to do with your personal perspectives. Wat. No one using anything against you, just teh america **** yea bull****.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:16 AM   #1111
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

should rename the thread "paganism - do you really think your christmas tree has better ornaments than my christmas tree?"

burn the house down
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:39 AM   #1112
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Yet with all this Liberty, we still are not even close to being the most educated nation anymore. lulz.
This doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
How bout the right to play poker? These utterly vacuous and trite word bombs of purple prose fall apart with the slightest inspection.
I play poker every day, bub.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:51 AM   #1113
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Originally Posted by StoneNit View Post
America is not some mystical perfect country. All countries are designed and comprised of humans and humans historically have shown to be anything but infallible. Winston Churchill once said something along the lines of "democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried" and in the spirit of that quote I think that while America is certainly not perfect it is the best country and government we have been able to form to date. America is a shining example of everything we can do right and should protect as a people, and at its core are fundamental rights and principles enshrined into law above all else.

So to answer the question, yes I do believe America is better than all other countries. Not because of some divine grace, not because we have the strongest military or largest economy, not because we have some perceived strength in a particular field, but rather because of the core fundamental principles and freedoms that America was conceived in and continue to (or at least try to) maintain. The United States of America was the first country to take many of the contemporary radical ideas of liberty from Enlightenment Period and base a country around them. We were the first modern Constitutional Republic and currently the oldest amoung other countries who predate our own by hundreds if not thousands of years.

In the end America is the land of opportunity and freedom and that is certainly something to be proud of. We have immigration problems because we have a country people are willing to risk their lives and break the law to enter. Our detractors may try to misrepresent certain facts and statistics on this issue or that out of spite or jealousy without proper context, but Americans generally have never cared what the talking mouths of western Europe have had to say. Any problems within America will be fixed within a manner that best suits the needs of our people, not to appease the socialist democracies of the West or the oppressive despots of the East. America has and always will stand for liberty, what is right, and the fundamental rights of mankind.
You write pretty well, but unfortunately you have not said anything of substance here.

You have used a lot of vague, self-serving phrases about how America is such a shining beacon for human rights and freedom, but how do you propose to reconcile all that with the following:

Domestically:
  • All U.S. citizens can be indefinitely detainted by the military, without access to a lawyer or a trial. If you don't know about the National Defence Authorization Act (NDAA), I suggest you look it up. Immediately.
  • PATRIOT act

Knowing the above, does that change your view of freedoms enjoyed by Americans? Wouldn't you say that any other 'first-world' country has at least the same, and probably more, freedom and civil liberties as the U.S.?

Internationally:

Exhibit A:

What about all the invasions, wars, bombings, overthrowal of democratically-elected leaders, support for dictators, suppression of movements for social change, assassinations, sanctions, death squads, biological and chemical warfare, and torture that the U.S. is responsible for?




Exhibit B:
U.S. vetoes at the United Nations have run the full gamut of scumbaggery, so appalling in number and seriousness that it would simply take too long to discuss. If we keep just to human rights violations (ignoring the US' utter contempt for efforts to reduce proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as well as environmental destruction), we see that the U.S. has blocked efforts requiring nations to:
  • Recognise human rights
  • Observe international law (the only country in the world to have been condemned by the World Court for committing international terrorism)
  • Take measures against Nazi, Fascist, and neo-Fascist activities
  • Prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism etc
  • Recognise the rights of children
  • Observe the Geneva Convention

For a complete list, see http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle30468.htm - reading the list in its entirety is highly recommended, and truly eye-opening.

I said this in a previous post:

The conclusion, easily made, is that while the United Nations is the force with the greatest potential to make the world a better place, no other nation has worked harder to obstruct its efforts than the US.

There is no shortage of people who relentlessly deny and make absurd excuses for the atrocities committed by their government. Thanks to them, the groundwork for future crimes is laid (as Chomsky once said), and the struggle for a more peaceful, more just, and more compassionate world always seems to be out of reach.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:55 AM   #1114
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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This doesn't make sense.

I play poker every day, bub.
You're still not getting it...
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:10 AM   #1115
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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You're still not getting it...
Perhaps not. I was educated in American schools. Can you connect the dots for me?
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:14 AM   #1116
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Originally Posted by StoneNit View Post
Well yes actually, America has been a beacon of economic success not just for the past 20 years but for about the past 70 or so. True we have been stagnating in recent years, as have many other countries, but we still are the most prosperous nation in the world with wealth and comfort that others can only dream of. We are extremely fortunate without question.
What goes unmentioned here is that much of the power, privilege and freedom (albeit slowly but steadily eroding) enjoyed by the U.S. has come from depriving others of it, thanks to U.S. foreign policy.

An illustration:

Lesley Stahl, speaking of US sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is the price worth it?"

Madeleine Albright (Secretary of State): "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

[Television interview, "60 Minutes", May 12, 1996]
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:34 AM   #1117
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Old news
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:44 AM   #1118
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Perhaps not. I was educated in American schools. Can you connect the dots for me?
I'd be very happy to!

O.A.F.K.1.1 said
Quote:
"How bout the right to play poker? These utterly vacuous and trite word bombs of purple prose fall apart with the slightest inspection"
He was questioning the view that America really isn't the world champion for freedom and civil liberties (as many would like to think it is) and that a previous poster (whose post I recently responded to) who was arguing "for" really wasn't saying anything of substance.

To which you commented:
Quote:
"I play poker every day, bub."
The point is that many people in America can't, because of the government taking away freedoms. Whether or not you personally can play poker is not relevant to the discussion.

Hope that clears things up!
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:48 AM   #1119
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

The Iraq sanctions was an example, to illustrate a point.

Your position is that the U.S. is a leader for human rights and freedom, correct? Would you like to comment on my previous post (number 1113)?

Edit: Sorry if the totally needless death of half a million people bores you. Maybe this isn't the right thread for you?
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:12 AM   #1120
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Wait, didn't you just criticize the US's "utter contempt for efforts to reduce proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons"?

So allowing them to spread, not ok
Taking military action, not ok
Sanctions, not ok

What would be your solution to Saddam trying to get biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons?
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:19 AM   #1121
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Not at winter sports.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:21 AM   #1122
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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And that's how you dominate on the essay section of the GED, people.
A+
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:49 AM   #1123
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Wait, didn't you just criticize the US's "utter contempt for efforts to reduce proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons"?

So allowing them to spread, not ok
Taking military action, not ok
Sanctions, not ok

What would be your solution to Saddam trying to get biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons?
Hang on a minute, you really don't know which country helped him get biological, chemical and nuclear weapons???

Saddam was a U.S. favourite, and enjoyed 28 years of U.S. support. Iraq under Hussein also received billions of dollars in aid, military training, and diplomatic support. This aid continued even when Kurdish civilians were being attacked with poison gas. All in all, the U.S. helped Hussein to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people.

So to answer your question, the solution is simple: do not support dictators in the first place. Sadly, the tradition is 'as American as apple pie' and the U.S. is responsible for supporting a large percentage of them from all corners of the world, and all the misery and death that has resulted.

So, do you agree with my conclusion that the idea of the U.S. being a champion of human rights and freedom is LOL?

Last edited by PokerIMO; 07-16-2012 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:23 AM   #1124
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

What mesures do you use?

Personally I think the countrys in north europe is the best. Im not saying that because I live in Scandenavia, but I am saying that because there is so much supporting that statement.

Take Denmark for example which I live in.

Pros
-Free Education
-Free Hospitals
-very low crime
-High Avarage scores of students
-High Avarage education of the population
-Quite liberal on weed (even though its still illigal)
-Happiest avarage population in the world
-Low Curruption (allthough most politicians are currupt if you ask me)
-High minimum salary
-High Avarage salary
-No laws that violate civil libertys (unlike patriots act)
-Very few homeless people (they are homeless by choice, if they want a home they will be given a home on condition of following goverment program)
-Low joblessness (allthough pretty high amongst young people at the moment)
-Very low debt (unlike US)


Cons:
-High income tax
-Very hard immigrationlaws
-Pretty expensive living costs
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:23 PM   #1125
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Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

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Hang on a minute, you really don't know which country helped him get biological, chemical and nuclear weapons???

Saddam was a U.S. favourite, and enjoyed 28 years of U.S. support. Iraq under Hussein also received billions of dollars in aid, military training, and diplomatic support. This aid continued even when Kurdish civilians were being attacked with poison gas. All in all, the U.S. helped Hussein to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people.

So to answer your question, the solution is simple: do not support dictators in the first place. Sadly, the tradition is 'as American as apple pie' and the U.S. is responsible for supporting a large percentage of them from all corners of the world, and all the misery and death that has resulted.
What did you want the US government to do in, say, 1995? Clinton did not have a hot tub time machine as far as i know.

Quote:
So, do you agree with my conclusion that the idea of the U.S. being a champion of human rights and freedom is LOL?
Not at all. By far the best superpower of all time in that regard.
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