Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-06-2012, 04:48 PM   #351
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 24,594
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
Like the same way people are arguing against?

USA not #1 because of (take your pick) per capita income, education, health care, etc.

All of these in itself may be true, but it doesn't mean America still isn't the greatest country on earth, at this time. I've never heard "Finland is the greatest country on earth", ever. Have you?
Is this post a level?

Just calling something great = waffly platitude.
Actual facts = not waffly platitude.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 04:49 PM   #352
M8Ludi
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,055
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
Immigration.
The world is flat. No one has to leave their families and culture to reach success in the computerized, flat world. Why come to America? Not for the food. Not for the culture. Not for the money? Why?
M8Ludi is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:10 PM   #353
swinginglory
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,508
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaname2 View Post
Not for nothing, but I believe Santa Claus moved his workshop to Honduras in the mid 90s.
Isn't Superman's Fortress of Solitude still up there somewhere?
swinginglory is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:17 PM   #354
wil318466
banned
 
wil318466's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 19,155
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M8Ludi View Post
If we are talking about the quality of life and culture, America would not even make to top ten. Nor the top twenty. Most of Scandinavia would make the top ten.
This could be right if we were talking about quality of life and culture, but we aren't, are we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

The Germans put on average 80% of there Military into the Russian invasion, more like 90% at certain times. The West front was a side show in comparison. After Stalingrad they could have put 100% it would not have mattered
You could very well be right. I was under the impression that the Germans used 60-70% of their armies on the Eastern front. This wasn't what I was arguing, I was simply saying that if they would have done it the right way and attacked one group of people at a time, they'd have had a better chance. Do you have a citation for this 80-90% range? I'm genuinely curious as I like reading about that stuff, I'd hate to get this wrong in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Is this post a level?

Just calling something great = waffly platitude.
Actual facts = not waffly platitude.
That's not the point. My point was that you can take each metric in and of itself and America wouldn't be #1, but we aren't using that metric. We're using "Greatness". Finland != greatness. Get it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M8Ludi View Post
The world is flat. No one has to leave their families and culture to reach success in the computerized, flat world. Why come to America? Not for the food. Not for the culture. Not for the money? Why?
This is simply wrong. You can't even make this argument in the same countries. I don't work from home for a company in Japan, and I would daresay that you couldn't find many Americans that did. The same vice-versa. In any two countries. On earth.
wil318466 is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:30 PM   #355
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 24,594
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
You could very well be right. I was under the impression that the Germans used 60-70% of their armies on the Eastern front. This wasn't what I was arguing, I was simply saying that if they would have done it the right way and attacked one group of people at a time, they'd have had a better chance. Do you have a citation for this 80-90% range? I'm genuinely curious as I like reading about that stuff, I'd hate to get this wrong in the future.
95% of German casualties on the East Front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Quote:
Operation Barbarossa was the code name for Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union during the Second World War.[16][17] Beginning on 22 June 1941, over 3.9 million troops of the Axis powers invaded the USSR along a 2,900 km (1,800 mi) front,[18] the largest invasion in the history of warfare. In addition to troops, Barbarossa involved 600,000 motor vehicles and 750,000 horses.[19] The ambitious operation, driven by Adolf Hitler's persistent desire to conquer the Russian territories, marked the beginning of the pivotal phase in deciding the victors of the war. The German invasion of the Soviet Union ultimately resulted in 95% of all German Army casualties from 1941 to 1944 and 65% of all Allied military casualties accumulated throughout the war.
Quote:
That's not the point. My point was that you can take each metric in and of itself and America wouldn't be #1, but we aren't using that metric. We're using "Greatness". Finland != greatness. Get it?
Yea but the point is that the word greatness in isolation is just a waffly platitude, to make it mean anything you actually have to refer to some of those facts. That said Finland can not be the greatest because of its ****ty weather and darkness. Fact.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:40 PM   #356
Andz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Andz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Behind God's back
Posts: 8,420
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Hitler was obssesed with defeting Stalin. If he would proceed towards Ukraine like it was planed then he could probably won the war, but luckily he didn't. He wanted to humiliate Stalin by destroying Stalingrad and that backfired on him. If he won in Stalingrad no D-day would ever save Europe.
Andz is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:47 PM   #357
Andz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Andz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Behind God's back
Posts: 8,420
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

65% of Allied military casualties also come from that front. Without Russia there would be no Europe today.
Andz is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:49 PM   #358
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 24,594
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andz View Post
Hitler was obssesed with defeting Stalin. If he would proceed towards Ukraine like it was planed then he could probably won the war, but luckily he didn't. He wanted to humiliate Stalin by destroying Stalingrad and that backfired on him. If he won in Stalingrad no D-day would ever save Europe.
The Germans went through Ukraine to get to Stalingrad. Germany could never have won at Stalingrad, they only could have lost less badly by allowing the 6th Army to withdraw. Even if they had done this they would still have been waffle crushed.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:00 PM   #359
Andz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Andz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Behind God's back
Posts: 8,420
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Yeah sorry my bad.
Andz is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:02 PM   #360
swinginglory
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,508
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

The Germans put on average 80% of there Military into the Russian invasion, more like 90% at certain times. The West front was a side show in comparison. After Stalingrad they could have put 100% it would not have mattered.
Yes.... I'm sure all those divisions sitting on their hands in France wouldn't have made one iota of difference in 41-42 on the eastern front.

I'm also sure Stalin wasn't screaming bloody murder for the allies to open up a second front in that time frame to lessen the pressure on him, either.

Those 250,000 german troops sitting on the Atlantic Wall couldn't have been of any help at Stalingrad and neither would this:

Quote:
The situation for the Luftwaffe (at Stalingrad) was now becoming increasingly difficult. On 8 November, substantial units from Luftflotte 4 were withdrawn to combat the Allied landings in North Africa. The German air arm found itself spread thinly across Europe, struggling to maintain its strength in the other southern sectors of the Soviet-German front.[Note 6] Meanwhile, the Soviet Army was being supplied by the American government under the Lend-Lease program. During the last quarter of 1942, the U.S. sent the Soviet Union 60,000 trucks, 11,000 jeeps, 2 million pairs of boots, 50,000 short tons (45,000 t) of explosives, 450,000 short tons (410,000 t) of steel and 250,000 short tons (230,000 t) of aviation gas.[29].404 The majority of the American boots, which Stalin requested first[citation needed], reached the troops. However, a part of the military equipment and food supplied by the USA was destroyed by German attacks,[citation needed] as that of Convoy PQ-17.
But the diversion of the German Air Force and the loads of material flowing to Russia from had nothing to do with the out come of the battle and the rest of the war.
swinginglory is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:20 PM   #361
Case Closed
self-banned
 
Case Closed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: pooping my big boy pants
Posts: 19,112
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andz View Post
65% of Allied military casualties also come from that front. Without Russia there would be no Europe today.
Gotta disagree with this. I don't know if these are unquestioned facts or just fairly solid rumors, but I think hitler was using meth and showed signs of parkizans(sp?) while he was alive. That was going to be a short lived personality cult empire. I am sure France, and some other countries, would have come back in some form after he died and when **** hit the fan subsequently.
Case Closed is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:29 PM   #362
Vael
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Vael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,378
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
That's not the point. My point was that you can take each metric in and of itself and America wouldn't be #1, but we aren't using that metric. We're using "Greatness". Finland != greatness. Get it?
Metrics that describe the welfare of a country's people seem to have a lot more to do with Greatness than "great because it fights for things it believes in" which is just ******ed. I mean seriously?
Vael is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:40 PM   #363
wil318466
banned
 
wil318466's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 19,155
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vael View Post
Metrics that describe the welfare of a country's people seem to have a lot more to do with Greatness than "great because it fights for things it believes in" which is just ******ed. I mean seriously?

I already explained the leadership role. If you disagree with my wording, fine, I believe I had a few drinks when I wrote it. If you want to define the greatest country as the one where the the welfare of the people is the highest, I'd argue against it.

I don't define "great" by the metrics that have been mentioned. I don't know how many times I can say it - Finland (I'm using Finland simply as an example) is not great. It may very well be a nice place to live, but "great"? Not even close.

If you're going to use metrics that measure the welfare of country's people, then use it and match it up against the US, respond. You want to argue about the "greatness" of Denmark, please, knock yourself out. But stop with the nitpicking with my choice of words, jesus.
wil318466 is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 07:21 PM   #364
Effen
CRAB
 
Effen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 100% less ****s given
Posts: 24,004
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andz View Post
Hitler was obssesed with defeting Stalin. If he would proceed towards Ukraine like it was planed then he could probably won the war, but luckily he didn't. He wanted to humiliate Stalin by destroying Stalingrad and that backfired on him. If he won in Stalingrad no D-day would ever save Europe.
Actually if he wouldn't have detoured into the Balkans in the Spring he would have rolled regardless

/hijack
Effen is offline  
Old 06-06-2012, 07:23 PM   #365
tomdemaine
Just tries harder
 
tomdemaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Social Justice Rogue
Posts: 20,071
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluffsOften View Post
North Korea is the greatest nation on earth


Disclosure:

Spoiler:
fyp

edit : also what happened to you in your pregnancy thead?
tomdemaine is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 02:45 AM   #366
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 24,594
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginglory View Post
Yes.... I'm sure all those divisions sitting on their hands in France wouldn't have made one iota of difference in 41-42 on the eastern front.

I'm also sure Stalin wasn't screaming bloody murder for the allies to open up a second front in that time frame to lessen the pressure on him, either.

Those 250,000 german troops sitting on the Atlantic Wall couldn't have been of any help at Stalingrad and neither would this:


If you actually had some understanding of the actual numbers of divisions involved, you would know that they would have made negligible difference to the outcome of the initial attack. It was a huge thrust over a massive front. Of those 250,000 men on the Atlantic wall, only a very small fraction would have been at Stalingrad, because you know Russia is pretty big and the Germans had 3 army groups engaged in it. After Stalingrad you could have put every German soldier into Russia and it might have meant a stalemate after a massive withdrawal that Hitler would probably not have allowed at best, but that is being very very optimistic for the Germans. After Kursk and Bagration it would have not made an iota of difference.

The presence of a larger Air force would have done little to sway the strategic situation at Stalingrad, with the huge build up of Russian reserves of which the Germans were utterly and completely unaware. The counter attack and encirclement at Stalingrad caught the Germans completely by surprise, they cant bomb what they cant see.

Of course the allies supplied Logistic support no is disputing that, but whats your point? No one is arguing about that.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 06-07-2012 at 02:52 AM.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 03:15 AM   #367
LirvA
self-banned
 
LirvA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Free Manning, Hammond, and Brown.
Posts: 42,857
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
I'm considering a move to CO, which seems to be the greatest state in the US.

It's absolutely ****ing amazing there.


Take me with you!
LirvA is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 03:52 AM   #368
Regret$
burnt out
 
Regret$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,115
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Case Closed View Post
Gotta disagree with this.
+1, instead of the first to drop 2 nukes in a day, we would have been the first country to drop 2 nukes on 2 different continents in a day.
Regret$ is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 04:55 AM   #369
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 24,594
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regret$ View Post
+1, instead of the first to drop 2 nukes in a day, we would have been the first country to drop 2 nukes on 2 different continents in a day.
Which ironically would have been built with much assistance from German scientists. As it turns out the Bomb was very useful, one of the main reasons it was used was to show the Russians what might happen if they decided to keep going after Berlin and try and occupy the whole of Europe. Yanks will start tub thumping LDO but they could have handily defeated the Allied conventional forces in theatre.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 09:24 AM   #370
pvn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginglory View Post
I don't know what you are referring to in June 1972. Nixon bombing North Vietnam? Watergate burglaries?
You said the question was answered 40 years ago. Yesterday was the 68th anniversary. 68-40=28.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #371
swinginglory
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,508
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Of course the allies supplied Logistic support no is disputing that, but whats your point? No one is arguing about that.
My point is simple. This thread is supposed to be about (broadly speaking) has America's influence on the world been positive or negative.

My point being, without America's influence in world affairs during WWII, Europe would either have ended up under Hitler or Stalin and either of those options would be far worse than the hegemony of America under which individual liberty has thrived.

Getting back to Stalingrad for months that battle could have gone either way. It is hard to imagine part of the Luftwaffe being shipped to North Africa and the Allied aid to Russia through Murmansk and Archangel had no influence on the out come of the battle.

But the notion that life would be just ducky today in the Netherlands today had either Hitler or Stalin had prevailed is just silly. The notion that America carries all the mail is incorrect, but the notion that Europe would be anything similar to what is is today without the participation of America is just as silly.

The stark reality is without America , Europe and Asia would be far worse places today.

Now the question of is America "better" than other countries is a little loaded, but I would say net, America has been a hugely positive influence on individual liberty world wide.
swinginglory is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 10:03 AM   #372
swinginglory
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,508
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvn View Post
You said the question was answered 40 years ago. Yesterday was the 68th anniversary. 68-40=28.
Well played! I meant to say Reagan's speech was given 28 yrs ago on the 40th anniversary of the D Day invasion.
swinginglory is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 10:22 AM   #373
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 24,594
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginglory View Post

Getting back to Stalingrad for months that battle could have gone either way. It is hard to imagine part of the Luftwaffe being shipped to North Africa and the Allied aid to Russia through Murmansk and Archangel had no influence on the out come of the battle.
But the transfer did not happen until after Nov 8th. At that point it had already dropped thousands of tons of bombs and flown thousands of sorties and the Russians still held positions on the west bank. By this point the outcome of the battle would not have been changed by the presence of a few more aeroplanes as it could have done nothing to change the massive forbearance of the Russian strategic reserves.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #374
eltong
newbie
 
eltong's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 25
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginglory View Post
My point is simple. This thread is supposed to be about (broadly speaking) has America's influence on the world been positive or negative.

My point being, without America's influence in world affairs during WWII, Europe would either have ended up under Hitler or Stalin and either of those options would be far worse than the hegemony of America under which individual liberty has thrived.

Getting back to Stalingrad for months that battle could have gone either way. It is hard to imagine part of the Luftwaffe
being shipped to North Africa and the Allied aid to Russia through Murmansk and Archangel had no influence on the out come of the battle.

But the notion that life would be just ducky today in the Netherlands today had either Hitler or Stalin had prevailed is just silly. The notion that America carries all the mail is incorrect, but the notion that Europe would be anything similar to what is is today without the participation of America is just as silly.

The stark reality is without America , Europe and Asia would be far worse places today.

Now the question of is America "better" than other countries is a little loaded, but I would say net, America has been a hugely positive influence on individual liberty world wide.
What about these people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_..._United_States or these people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_americans ?
eltong is offline  
Old 06-07-2012, 12:50 PM   #375
bernie
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
bernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Muckleshoot! Usually rebuying.
Posts: 18,883
Re: Nationalism: Do You Actually Think America is Better Than Other Countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
It's funny you should mention Nazi Germany and America, since that situation is what catapulted America into it's status. America could have been a country that just sat back and stayed neutral. It didn't, and the world changed - for the better.
.
Yeah, they were the first in line in the resistance....

Actually, they were a little late to the party. After all, they had, er, there own race relations deal going...

b
bernie is offline  

 
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive