Your question really makes no sense as a response. Your sympathy isn't the question here. Whether or not I would consider choking to death during a fight murder or not would depend on how it happened. His having a gun does not make this automatically murder imo. But it was murder because the shover immediately backed away and the shooter's life was not immediately threatened.

The shover pretty unquestionably assaulted the guy. The circumstances before the shove (did he hit the guy's girlfriend?) might make me jury nullify on the assault, but it was assault and if the guy had died from hitting his head when he fell it would have been murder. imo.

Nonetheless, dude with gun needed to wait there for a second before shooting and see if brandishing did anything for it not to be murder. And then given the guy's history it makes it even easier to convict as he seems quite eager to shoot people in that parking lot.

Even the Law of Armed Conflict requires that EVEN IN WAR...let alone mild alterations at convenience stores... there is requirement for proportionality of response.

Guy was backing away when the weapon was pulled. Obviously murder. No grey area, no ambiguity. Nothing will happen because nothing matters anymore.

Again, we are watching two different vids then. The shover does NOT immediately back away! -0:14 is when initial contact is made. Also at -0:14 he actually takes a step or two forward and pulls up his pants as if getting ready for further confrontation. It's not until -0:13 when the shooter sits up and his right hand goes back to clearly grab for something that the shover stops and starts walking backward.

And this is where it should have ended imo. No reason to shoot. I'm in complete agreement on that. I certainly wouldn't have shot and don't think most reasonable people would have either. My entire point is that when you physically confront someone it's stupid to assume that they'll be reasonable. Violence is violence and whether the guy pulled out a gun, a knife, a lollipop, or just got up and beat the guy to death with his fists doesn't matter. The shover is the one who initiated the violence. He encroached and threatened another person's physical well being and now he doesn't get to choose what an appropriate response should be. That's all I'm saying.

And that's my other point. We have no idea what led up to the encounter. And the shover probably didn't either. Maybe he heard the guy insulting his wife and didn't like it. Who knows? But what we can say for sure is that he made no attempt to diffuse the situation and just drive away. Instead, his first recourse was to physically assault the guy.

I completely agree. Again, most reasonable people wouldn't have open fired. But this is what happens when violence ensues. Adrenaline, fear, and flight or fight reflexes kick in. Maybe he brandishes the gun, the guy goes back to the car as if to drive away, then pulls out his own gun and kills the guy he shoved.

All I'm advocating for here is not to be the one who initiates violence and can't believe the hard time I'm getting for it.

Touche! I guess I should've used the word empathy. I have empathy for the guy. I have sympathy for his son and loved ones. I do not have sympathy for the shover because I think he was wrong. I don't think he deserved to die though.

It's still murder. The guy backed off when he saw the gun. At that point the assaulted guy can not shoot him. If he does go to his trunk and grab a gun, then the guy can shoot. Even if he grabs a baseball bat or an axe he can shoot. He can shoot if the pusher stops backing away and starts after him again. But he can't shoot while the guy is backing off regardless of who started it without it being murder. And he can't just pull the gun and blaze away under the circumstances in the video.

We can go back and forth calling each other a fascist all day. I contend you're the one who's a complete and utter fascist. No one denfends 4A more than I do. I believe in civil rights. The right to walk down the street without needing to ID yourself upon request to police unless a crime or suspicion of a crime can be articulated. But that also includes the right to your personal space and physical well being without being harassed. And don't give me your look who started it BS. Words are words. But when you accost someone physically and assault them anything goes.

And lol at desperately trying to overplay your hand again and making this about race. Sorry.. You got knocked out way before the bubble this time. When I first read the article I assumed it was about white trash Trumpkins. It wasn't until I saw the video and all the black people protesting that it even dawned on me they weren't both white guys. But thanks for playing fascist.

I don't make the laws man. Hold your ground is very gray and I believe FL has one of the more lenient SYG laws. We can debate the law if you like. Personally, I'd like to see much stricter gun laws and get every one of them off the streets. Others feel completely the opposite. But everyone keeps trying to derail what is really my only point. Don't initiate an act of violence towards a stranger. When you do so, it means YOU started a physical confrontation! And what follows isn't always going to be as you anticipated.


Again, I don't know what to say. I've seen physical confrontations escalate ridiculously quick. To the point where something that starts off as not even being able to tell if the people are joking around, to a full blown free for all where people get seriously hurt.

And I fully realize this is the same ****ty excuse that cops use to justify killing people (almost always blacks or poc) that never deserved to be killed. But at least they're supposed to be professionals who are thoroughly trained. They can get backup much quicker before entering what could prove to be a dangerous encounter. Often times they DO have backup and STILL wind up needlessly shooting someone who is unarmed in the back. All I'm saying to the average person is if you go out tonight and shove someone to the ground, don't be too surprised if you get shot. You probably won't, but it could happen. I'm done with this convo.

I mean yeah the guy didn't deserve to die obviously. But lol at escalating things with your gf and kid right there while in BANG BANG UR DEAD IF YOU BEAT ME AT TRIVIA FLOREDA.

Moral of story is lol Florida laws and hopefully that murdering ******* gets his

You have never defended the 4A in this forum. We've had a ****load of threads about stop and frisk and the "Ferguson effect" and assorted other things about policing and you've never once, ever, disagreed with a law and order conservative. When we talk about street crime you, unsurprisingly, mostly yell about Chicago and food stamps and other AM radio **** like that. I don't doubt you strongly defend the 4th amendment for yourself and probably various Trump campaign associates, but you absolutely do not give a **** about the civil rights of minorities and poor people. Those people are criminal scum in your eyes.

You're a bog standard white reactionary who loves stories about thugs getting more than they bargained for, Dirty Harry fantasies of shooting people for nothing are pretty ****ing old hat for you people.

OK so like, absolutely nothing has changed, everyone yelling at you was right, just like with Trayvon you blame the murder victim for their own death and regard lethal force as a reasonable response to a shove.

You lie constantly and unconvincingly, man. Like you skipped over it because of course you did, but like, you were just making that **** up about your "friends" killing people in street fights, and despite ONCE AGAIN getting called out for being a serial fabricator, you went right back to the well of making **** up:

If you want people to take you seriously, stop ****ing lying. You lie, badly, about everything!

Like, just as an example,

You spent the entire Scalise thread whining about people getting called gun nuts
and parroting dip**** NRA propaganda about how an armed citizenry protects us from tyranny, to the extent you got mad at liberal efforts to prevent gun sales to the mentally ill. You're very ****ing predictable about your actual beliefs I don't know why you think these obvious lies are going to pass muster.

**** you. The guy with the gun had just as much time to NOT kill someone.

There is no prior set of circumstances that make your side look good in this situation, so again, **** you. If the murderer had hit him with a candlestick the victim was backing up with his hand raised it would just as bad. If the murderer had got up off the ground and stabbed the victim who had his hand raised and was backing away it would be just as bad. The fact that it was a gun just means it was brought to our attention. All the rest of the facts show the flaw in the stand your ground laws and how it is the easiest way for serial killers to operate.

This is just stupid. We know that parking in a handicap spot isn't a capital offense. We know if the guy who was pushed minded his own business he wouldn't have killed an innocent person. And we sure as **** know if the murderer had "taken the time to find out what was going on and talked it out" we wouldn't be having this thread.

It's very true that I egregiously conflated different issues and topics and shot off my keyboard before logically and fully thinking everything through to their end conclusions and that caused me to hold some downright ugly racist views not to mention comments. I said I'd go away and think for a while and I did just that. At least when it comes to issues of race. I'm not a political junkie like you and others here are and I'm nowhere near as well versed on current events, names, who certain people are, etc. I am much more ignorant of overall events, outcomes, laws, etc. than most of you here. The scary part in all that, is I'm still considerably more knowledgeable than the average person on the street.

Okay this is where you devolve into the mind of a kindergartener trying to debate. What's my response to your lies supposed to be? I know you are, but what am I? No thanks. That you even waste your time making up lies about me (and many others) is pretty pathetic fly. I mean jfc at least make an attempt to show some integrity, honesty, and honor, by sticking to the current conversation at hand, instead of inserting a bunch of your unfounded flat out lies about what other people are think. I'm not the only one you do this with and even when you're right on substance your character devolves into just another anonymous despicable miscreant on the internet because I guarantee you there's no way you do this in real life! At least I have the balls to say whatever I do here in the real world too and when I'm wrong, I admit it.


Again, the past is the past. My views on this evolved. I'll bet at some point in your sorry ass life you thought babies came from storks. So shall I still chastise you for still believing that? Or can I assume you've grown since your bullied school days and the girls all laughed at you?

So sorry my old man decided to kick me out when I was 14, instead of paying for law school. Must suck for you to hear from someone who's actually seen and lived on the streets you know only through cable news. Yes. I've seen multiple people die in street and gang fights. I've been shot myself while my best friend died in the same shooting you unthinking, full of yourself POS.


[/quote]Like you skipped over it because of course you did, but like, you were just making that **** up about your "friends" killing people in street fights, and despite ONCE AGAIN getting called out for being a serial fabricator, you went right back to the well of making **** up:[/quote]

Yeah, making it up. My best friend DIED at 17!! How many of your teenage friends died getting shot during a drug deal gone wrong you spew spouting fascist?

In the meantime, I'll continue espousing my honest views and when I'm shown to be wrong, I'll admit, learn, and move on. I'm old man. I care about this **** because I thought this country was making progress. I was making progress (and still am). But now we're going backwards fast. But it might save you a lot of time to always keep in mind that I couldn't care less what the **** you think of me. So maybe save your personal attacks and concentrate on substance.

I am not trying to make a side look good so... **** you!

Hmm. You might want to look up how the word victim applies here. Apparently under FL stand your ground laws the one who was initially physically attacked was the victim. I didn't make this law so **** you again!


This is nothing a worthless subjective opinion. Next you'll say, if he got up and punched him in the face and messed up his hair it's okay, maybe it's okay if he broke his nose, but if the punch resulted in the guy dying it's just as bad. Why don't we just employ referees on every street corner to make rulings on what exactly is an appropriate response to varying acts of violence because no one cares what kerowo thinks is just as bad, so **** you!

Exactly.

Then change the ****ing law and stop trying to tell people exactly how they're allowed to react when they are subjected to a physical assault because guns or no guns if you initiate a physical assault on someone you don't get to choose how the person reacts to it.

Sorry. This is just stupid. You are using an ex post facto justification because you have knowledge the guy was known to cause trouble. If I see an able bodied person taking up a handicapped spot, I'm going to say something. You wouldn't? Bravo for you I guess.

Even more stupid. The exact same thing can be said for the guy who INITIATED and escalated the situation into physical violence! So for the last time **** you!

Guys, guys, you have it all wrong. Lestat is just saying don't escalate to violence. I mean, unless you're a white guy that's verbally assaulting a black woman that parked in a handicap spot. Then it's okay to escalate as much as you want, especially if you're carrying a gun and have a predisposition to using it.

You're only not allowed to escalate if you're black.

If you don’t like people being murdered just change the law!

How exactly do you propose I “just change the law”?

Perhaps people could just stop murdering instead?

I mean, wow, how incredible that you've got another friend here. Not the friend who ground and pounded someone to death, not the one who uppercutted someone into a wall, not even yourself who got shot... you got another friend. Another friend whose life story happens to exactly fit the point you're trying to argue.

These anti-anti-racists guys love the Boy Who Cried Wolf as a story whose lesson is "never call anything racist" but like, it's actually a story about how repeatedly lying hurts your credibility.

And you lie too ****ing much, Lestat. You never ****ing learn. After the fact you pretend to have changed your mind so you don't need to defend your ****ty old views, but each and every issue that you're actually talking about you always take insane right wing views! Like right now, when you're owning the gun grabbers about how this was a good shoot.

So you can basically walk around with a weapon, provoke people, wait for them to push you, and then shoot them and you won't even be arrested? The US (granted this is Florida...) is insane.

Ya boy had a pretty elite lawyer to get only five years for murder.

this isnt brand new information, it's exactly what happened with GZ/trayvon

This case seems 10 times worse. In the GZ/trayvon case at least there was some indication of an actual fight between the two. Here it's all on video - one push and that's it, you are done if the other guy has a gun?

Of course not. Everybody agrees getting to shoot people at will when they are no threat is insane. When the shooter is a black man and the dead person is a respectable white person, the crime is always murder and the punishment is always harsh. but...

Keeping uppity black people in their place is not always criminal, not always punished.

There are other topics where it's hard to know exactly how much race is mixed in. Not this one. This is a battle between people who think black people are scary and white people have a natural right to kill black people when they get out of line and people who think black people should also be protected by the law.

What were the races of the assailant and victim in this case?

There was a black man and a white man. Take a guess which one did what, based on the shooter not being arrested.