It seems entirely plausible to me that an environment where women are habitually presented as worthwhile only insofar as they are desirable to men will tend to inculcate an attitude of sexual entitlement and that the prevalence of such an attitude likely contributes both to frequency of rape and of rape-enabling behaviours like denial, victim-blaming etc.

What any of that has to do with being a woman or female experience etc is lost on me. If you ever change someone's mind about this, it won't be because you reminded them you're a woman.

Lol

I mean, I guess I should have posted 'tell me more about the "dangers of rape", random internet man' willywonka.jpg

The thing about it is that I agree with you, I just think you're advancing an extremely flawed justification for the position. If I'm considering opinions on the root causes of crime, I'm paying much, much more attention to a criminologist than to someone who's been mugged a bunch of times. That person's experience can offer a lot of insight on what mugging is like, muggers' methods, how being mugged affects you, how people around you respond to the fact you've been mugged etc. Basically useless in terms of explaining the prevalence or root causes of mugging, though.

I was blowing him off. Not trying to change his mind.

If we want to have a real discussion where I attempt to change peoples' minds then I have to prepare for that kind of time sink, bc I've already done it a bunch on these forums and its ****ing exhausting.

I appreciate your points.

Ah, the Skalanski classic: “I’m on your side but I just hate bad logic.”

Definitely a nonzero amount of mansplaining taking place in that AIF post

As always, nothing but love for my man allies

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ A bad argument's a bad argument.

Recent convos here have me thinking that things have gone downhill since the invention of language, which reminds me of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Neuroscientis.../dp/1328787303 I haven't read it yet, but I heard the author talking about it and it was really interesting. I generally don't like to buy books and use the library instead, but it'll be a while before this one gets there. Maybe I'll put out some hints for father's day.

It's not, though? It's certainly glib but I think it's pretty bad to dismiss the idea that a lifetime of experience someone's built up by being a woman has given them a different and perhaps valuable perspective on sexism and how it can lead to entitlement over women's bodies, in a way that 99% of this forum has not been able to observe the subject.

And there is also, of course, the fact that this entire forum is full of a bunch of non-experts opining on anything and everything. I don't recall anyone ever telling jman that relying on his experience as a prosecutor when discussing criminal justice is a BAD ARGUMENT because sure maybe he spends lots of time in courtrooms but he doesn't study the subject academically.

How many female politics regs do we actually have? Offhand I can think of Gizmo and nobody else.

Sucks when viral twitter accounts suck; Devin Nunes Cow tweets constantly and isn’t ever funny

Nothing will ever beat DPRK news service.

Nah, I don't agree. Personal experience is just that - personal experience. When we talk about respecting the experiences of marginalised people, it's about listening to and crediting their reports of their experiences. 'The causes of sexually violent behaviour' just isn't something that comes under the purview of 'personal experience'.

My point is that being a woman doesn't equate to working as a prosecutor, where working as a prosecutor is the analogue for 'having insight into the causes of sexual violence inaccessible to most men'.

Like, how come I agree with her? I don't have any of these female experiences, so what gives? It's probably not that I'm extremely gifted in some way, right? It's more likely to be because the issue is a question of fact and we have been convinced of the same/similar interpretations of the available information.

Meh, I'll allow this one--that drives me nuts too.

You were "convinced".

My "education" in these subjects didn't include "convincing" me.

You reached your conclusion via a very different path.

ALSO, I have more information. This is the part about experience that you're missing.

hahaha

they should rename oot aoc

My contention is that if jman leaned on his experience as a prosecutor to make a statement about the criminal justice system in general, whether or not he has academic qualifications well beyond whatever anecdotes he's observed in his career to make such a statement, you would not call him out like you just did Crossnerd, because "you're not a prosecutor/defense attorney, you wouldn't understand" is not as #triggering as "you're not a woman, you wouldn't understand".

I disagree that "bad argument is a bad argument, gonna call those out equally" is what's going on here (on top of disagreeing with you that Crossnerd is making a bad argument).

About the causes of sexual violence? N.B.: not the nature, not the extent, not the impact, not the prevalence, not attitudes towards it, its perpetrators or its victims (all of which I'll grant), but about the causes? I don't believe that's true.

And to be clear, I don't believe that because I don't believe that insights into that kind of thing come from personal experience. I don't believe there's any issue or social ill I understand the root cause of because of my experiences as a guy. That doesn't make sense to me. That's not how you get insight into those kinds of things.

I think that women who have been the victim of a sexual assault have way more insight into it than me despite the fact that I’ve prosecuted a lot of them, FWIW.

Well, my contention is that being a woman does not offer insight into the causes of sexual violence in the way that working as a prosecutor would offer insight into the criminal justice system. So you're of course correct that I wouldn't object to jman making some kind of argument based on his experiences as a prosecutor (up to some point that it would be tiresome and unhelpful to waste time trying to delineate), because I agree that working as a prosecutor affords him insight into it.

Cool, I'll let you know if I start caring.

Even Gizmo's not really a regular here.

PartyGirlUK posts a lot in the Brexit and UK politics thread.

This is the post I responded to.

Yes I think I have more insight into all of the above than you, and I consider that an immutable fact.